Episode 11: Emergence, Grief, and Dating After Divorce
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Wendy Sloneker is sharing her episode when she was a guest on the podcast Dating After Divorce with Sade Curry. In this special episode (replayed from July 24 on Dating After Divorce), Emergence Coach, Wendy Sloneker shares her transformative journey through the end of her marriage and her path to her authentic identity.
In addition to talking about her own divorce, Wendy shares her story of coming out as lesbian, how she used Al-Anon, a 12-step program, to uncover her codependency issues. She also talks about how she learned to love herself enough to enter a healthy relationship with her wife at the age of 41. Wendy also offers her perspective on using dating apps for self-discovery and personal growth. |
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Sade Curry is a Relationship Coach, Certified Trauma Recovery Coach, & Certified Life Coach School Coach. In this conversation with Wendy, Sade gives advice on understanding frames of reference in relationships and how divorce and relationships are pinnacle in the journey of Emergence. She also chats with Wendy on the importance of being intentional when dating and the lessons we learn from the people we connect with.
Learn more about Sade at her website, sadecurry.com, and find on her podcast episodes at sadecurry.com/datingafterdivorcepodcast
Links:
sadecurry.com
Dating After Divorce with Sade Curry Podcast
Learn more about Sade at her website, sadecurry.com, and find on her podcast episodes at sadecurry.com/datingafterdivorcepodcast
Links:
sadecurry.com
Dating After Divorce with Sade Curry Podcast
As seen on: |
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Full Episode Transcript
Wendy Sloneker
You are listening to Emergence from Life's Biggest Obstacles with Wendy Sloneker. This is podcast episode number 11. Hello, welcome and welcome back. Hey, I'm doing something a little bit different. I've never done this before in all of my podcasting between my heart healing from last project. And this new one, I have never had a podcast sort of replayed on to my podcast. What What am I talking about?
Hey, I have this fantastic experience with a dating after divorce coach named Sade Curry, please click her info in the show notes because she's a generous and grounded delight of a human. So I ended up being a guest on her podcast, and then I got permission to play it on my podcast for you, too. So this is different. I ended up sharing some stories with Sade and her audience about my experience in grief and emergence and dating after divorce from my personal realms.
So this is a little different purview into me my experience and one or two stories that I rarely share. So this is how safe Sade Curry sets a space, like IE up or talking about things that I rarely do. And certainly, I don't think I've ever really talked about one or two of the stories, especially the salsa dancing story I have, I don't think I've ever shared that on my any of my projects. So enjoy, sit back, relax, shadows, going to take the mic from here. And please enjoy her. Please connect with her if this isn't your pleasure, or you feel a resonance with her material. Link is in the show notes to her podcast and her website. Such a delight. I give you Sade Curry. Yeah. All right. And I'll talk to you next week.
Sade Curry
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Dating After Divorce Podcast. It is good to be back. I've been off for a couple of weeks just doing some r&r and collected myself and just really enjoying taking some time to enjoy the summer. But I'm glad to be back and I have a special treat for you with this episode. Back in July.
I have with me my friend, coach, colleague and fellow podcast host Wendy Sloneker here in the Zoom Room. And Wendy is a grief and emergence coach, and he is the host of hang on let me get the podcast name right. I covered it up Emergence from Life's Biggest Obstacles. And it is something that felt like the one of life's biggest obstacles. It was divorce. So Wendy is here to tell her story and drop all the gems about how we can move through grief heal, grow emerge. Wendy, welcome to the podcast. It is a delight to have you here.
Wendy
Hi, today. Hi, everybody. I'm thrilled and a half to be here.
Sade
Yes, thank you. Thank you for coming in and tell the listeners who you are what you do. What is an emergence coach, like we want to
Wendy
Thank you. This is like this is pretty new to me as well. So emergence happened, like it was dropped on me divinely like, oh, Wendy, I think grief, you've been working in grief and loss for three or four years now. And what I've, what I received was this word called emergence as a coach, it was in a mastermind. And it's with a coach that we share. And so like emergence just came to me in terms of ah, yeah, this is this is the direction. The idea here is that, yes, it's navigating, change and shift and transformation. But it's also implying that there's another side like grief is not something we work through and just get stuck in and hang out in and camp out in for years. This is something we emerge from this is something we can transcend. And this is not the destination, so let's keep going.
Sade
Yes. Oh yes. I love that. I mean, that resonates so hard. I know that resonates with the listeners because like divorce is just such a journey with so many cycles of meaning and emerge and grieving and emerging. So yeah, that definitely that definitely hits home. But we're here to hear your story. And I want to, I'm going to be listening for all the like emergence in there because I've read there's a ton. Whoa, have your own divorce story, your own journey. Let's start with where you are like, what does relationship look like for you now? And then we'll talk about how you got here.
Wendy
All right. Right now relationship looks like married partnership with a rambunctious dog that, I don't know. Like, we don't have biological children, either one of us, but I'm married to a woman. And she's amazing. And honestly, we met when I was 41. And I, we met in 12 Step Rooms. And so we each sort of got there, I was entered, not entertaining, I was inside of a brand new program, it was called Al Anon, it's still called out on on, but like I was new to that.
And the reason that I was there is I wanted a relationship. I had been sober for six years. And I really wanted a relationship where I could be a responsible adult. Not more on that later. Exactly. But also like, you know, there were, make sure that I talked about the dating apps, because I cannot like I'm not a responsible person. When it comes to dating apps, like that is a place where I put myself on restriction. No.
So anyway, so we met and I was 40-41, I was also doing things that I had never done before. Like, I was a Go Go dancer at 41. And that's when I met my wife, Jennifer. And it was not a full time thing. It was just something I had never done before. And so I wanted to get up and do it. So I was doing that I didn't meet her go go dancing. I met her and Al Anon. But honestly, when I look back, I was not ready for this relationship. Anytime before we met. Like that would have been something that would have felt too good to like, I wasn't good enough for this kind of peace for this kind of ease for the effortlessness and the support that just comes easily in this one, I wasn't ready. I would have burned it down.
Sade
I hear that How long have you been together?
Wendy
We've been together it'll be 14 years. On next week. Yeah,
Sade
So this isn't new. This isn't still trying it out. If you've had peace for 14 years, that's real.
Wendy
Ah, and like I've grown and she's grown in her ways, but also in our ways since then, like she's seen me move through a lot of different facets of career and shift around work and I've been there and just supported you know, her and us emotionally without getting in her business. Yeah, I love that thing.
Sade
I know recently you celebrated 20 years sober
Wendy
Thank you yeah
Sade
my my journey into coaching started with Christian 12 Step. Celebrate Recovery so I definitely am with the on there with the with the 12 steps.
Wendy
Thank you for telling me
Sade
Absolutely it was saved my life because I was like the day before I separated from my ex I had no idea that I had codependency issues literally at 39-40. I was like, oh look, my life is unmanageable. Interesting. That's fantastic. You start again, so tell. You know what brought you to that moment where you met Jennifer in Al Anon.
Wendy
What brought me to that moment Oh, pretty much every single freaking day before that. I my divorce story, actually, I think I'll just like head back there to the divorce story. I was married to a delightful man. For three years. We were together a total of eight years. And you know, the I started going to therapy and getting some counseling, because I was afraid. This was something that was just mine. In my inner experience, I was afraid that the next step was going to be I was supposed to have a kid.
And so I went to get some support just to like, talk about that process that that had nothing to do with this lovely man who like that was the most I knew of love. And it was real. And it was lovely. And then when I discovered, and it was like an epiphany awakening, I have grown up with the idea, this was not part of my growing up family, but my inside experience was everyone somewhere on the sexuality scale. So I happened to be somewhere that I had identified as a straight white woman for, you know, like most of my life until I had an experience where I was no longer able to deny, like these feelings, it was like a wake up call. And it had to do with one person that I had known for a long time, but saw in a different way.
And I'm so proud that I didn't have to sleep with her in order to, like confirm, it was just unknowing on on me that was inside of me. And I was no longer able to deny that, wait a minute, this feels real. And what it looks like or what I should be doing is no longer in play. So the first person I told was my now ex husband, and it was brutal. It was freaking awful, it was certainly not something I ever wanted to.
If I had known going into that relationship and marriage, that I would one day be coming out as a lesbian. That is not something I would have done. Yeah, at all. So you know that I recently, not recently, I shortly after I came out, ended up having an opportunity to move to New York. So it was like, it all just came like to a head I had lived most of my life in the Bay Area of California.
And then I had an opportunity to move across the country and work in theater, which is where my undergrad is in. And so there was just a lot of opportunity for change and identity shift. And so it was November when I moved across the country, I had been out of the house that we had shared for about six months, 3,4,6 months, I can't remember now this was 2002 and moved across the country.
That was culture shock. That was identity shift. That was grief and loss. My parents at the time were really struggling with what do you mean? What are you talking about? You're coming you're what? And there was a lot of it's just a phase sort of thing that was discussed and then re discussed and then late, let's discuss that again. Because
Sade
How old are you at this at this?
Wendy
Oh, my God, I was. I was what was I? 35? Yeah, possibly No, my own self?
Sade
No way. Like, let's, let's all weigh in here that she's very sure about, but we're not sure about,
Wendy
Right. It's just such a like something they never expected something that was so shocking that they needed to go through and grieve and I could not be there for them in that. Like that. I know, I got mine. And I finally at some point was like, listen, I, I can't talk about this anymore, unless you're going to support me in whatever way.
Sade
Interesting that you know, and I don't want to put a name on it like enmeshment or whatever. But I am a parent of you know, grown children kind of on the cusp at this point. And I recognize that temptation to not see them as sovereign humans.
Wendy
Yeah. Yeah.
Sade
Like we've been in this appropriately codependent relationship for 18 years, where all of your choices, were you honorable and all that I'm responsible and in charge. And, you know, we're working this out together. And without self awareness or an understanding of appropriate relationships individuation it's very easy to just continue seeing your child in that light, right, like 35, it's like, well, yeah, we need to discuss this.
Wendy
Right. Right. And so that, you know, like putting that in a way where, actually nothing's wrong. This is simply a direction. This is a truth of mine that I am. And I'm going in this direction. I'm actually not asking for permission. This is where I'm going. And you know that that certainly does have consequences that certainly have, there was upheaval, there was a lot of confusion, there was hurt. And there was also just not knowing. Yeah, plenty of not knowing.
Sade
Yeah, how did you feel because the, you know, I'm all I always reference the stress scale, like the life incidents that have the highest number of points for stress, and divorce tends to have a cluster of them. So it's not just the one it's a divorce by itself, I think it's the second highest, but cluster around divorce is then moving, which is one of the top 10 as well, changes in financial situation complex. There are like five that cluster around divorce. So like when you add up the stress points for divorce, and everything that goes with it, it tends to be like really, really high. Yeah, what were you experiencing?
Wendy
Are you not most of it, I was on such a, like, I felt like I had, I had gone through some sort of transformation. It was like, a deepening. But it was also a way for me to tell this truth that had I'd never entertained or considered for myself, I was just always kind of like, okay, well, what am I supposed to be doing next? Versus what do I want next? And so that kind of like, overshadowed thought about like, what do other people think? Or what will other people say?
This is not okay, there was that that had felt so freeing. And in the middle of telling my truth, there were a lot of people who felt a lot of hurt and anger, reasonably 100%, reasonably, some of the challenging feelings didn't really come until later for me. And some of that has to do with like, I had this whole new identity that I had never explored. There was a sense of more pleasure and presence in where I was going, right.
So I had somewhere really, like, wild and incredible and knew to go and it was this whole culture that I was gonna swim in. And so it was kind of like having another adolescence. One where, like, I was clear, and I was present. And I knew about some of my own working parts and what didn't work around partnership and intimacy and this sort of thing, but it was on a freer level.
Yeah, some of this also included a lot of shame. When I was disclosing and coming out to people that that I hadn't known earlier. Right. Like, I, there was no way I could have known earlier. And there was no way ultimately, eventually that I should have known earlier. So when I let myself off the hook from that. Yeah, that's where some real healing also began. That was just acceptance of my story and my path.
Sade
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's powerful. So it sounds like the sort of the joy and freedom that came from him fully being myself now, almost like ameliorated the I'm moving across the country and taking the subway and I don't know if you have to climb five flights of stairs to your apartment in New York, because that craziness happens over there. Like, right, right. That happening, and it almost seems like it balanced it out. I don't know. Is that does that sound?
Wendy
I would say yeah, I think it was more like there was more to focus on that was unknown and exciting. I felt like things had been really opening up by me coming out and coming to this realization, but then also, you know, I could see and empathize with you know, it was not an opening up for others. Like with my ex husband, we ended up going to counseling to end the marriage. And so we hadn't been to counseling before it was. It was a perfectly excellent relationship. Like we didn't fight we didn't, you know, do have a lot of problems around that relationship. It was super loving and that's when I knew of love at the time. Yeah.
Sade
Yeah. Yeah. Love that you went to counseling or that. That's very conscious.
Wendy
I was really proud of myself for that. I mean, that was something that like one, I'm really proud that I didn't sleep with the person that kind of like, was a catalyst for my own awakening. I didn't sleep with them her hit them at this point. And I haven't really talked to them in a while, either. So like, yeah, I was proud of that, but also going to counseling, either just to talk it out in a facilitated way or to end it. Mine was to my priority was like, I want to end this well. And I'm not sure what his was other than I'm so glad he agreed to it.
Sade
Yeah, yeah. That's so good. So what came next you? Yeah, you're in New York, you're living free. Yeah.
Wendy
It's like wild, like some of the things that just ridiculous. Like, I moved in November, I drove across country. And I moved to New York without a coat. I was like, oh, that's what Northern California people do is like they move over. And let's just say things. And so let's ridic like, let that just be an example of me going into the entire lesbian culture, right? I was without a coat in November in New York.
But so, so much I didn't know so much I didn't really, like, understand or get until I had a lived experience. Primarily this had to do with, with my first girlfriend, who like knew completely had known my husband, we had known each other for a while I had worked in theater when she lived in San Jose.
And like, we worked great together on backstage projects. And so that's how I got my first job in theater in New York. And honestly, that, like I was coming out of a marriage and into a new, completely new identity. And then, you know, this person was looking for somebody for a very long term, like, please don't make me date, again, kind of relationship. And so when she asked me, Hey, can I call you my girlfriend? My experience was, while she's not asking to get married, so girlfriend means for me committed.
And for me, that also meant monogamous. And it did not mean wife, however, like, my experience of that in lesbian culture was like, it's closer than it's closer to wife, then girlfriend in that capacity. So that was a big learning curve around communication, what are we talking about? Exactly. But I was in such an adolescent phase as well, that I was like, okay. Yeah, here's what I'm hearing. Here's what I'm not hearing.
Sade
Know that you have, I think, okay, so, as a dating coach, and I talk to my clients, my listeners, and humans out in the world about dating. I don't think that's, I think that's like a, everybody thinks that it wasn't an adolescent. Literally, I have a moment in my program, where I talked to people about understand frames of reference, ensure that you clarify frames of reference, right?
Relationships, so huge. And what that you might be using the same words could mean completely different things. Just this is the perfect example. And so when my clients meet people, I'm always like, okay, so what did he because they what they do is the other term that we then use is leapfrogging so they hear something and then they leapfrog to the picture they have in their brain. And so my job as a coach is to say, okay, so he said, he wanted to have kids with you. And you took that to mean he's committing to you and you're eventually going to get married and have kids I said, so he said this You leapfrog to that do is actually get curious. By that.
Wendy
Tell me more. Is there a timeline? What are we talking about?
Sade
Me like tonight, right? Off birth control one that park. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think that's I think that's a beautiful illustration of just understanding the frames of reference are important, especially if we're approaching relationships with a mature adult mind, where we don't assume what other people are seeing where we assume that other people are a universe unto themselves. Want to get curious and know this person and what they're thinking and what what they're saying means
Wendy
Amazing. This is also like when you were talking about the levels of stress, like all the things that you mentioned, shoddy were like, also things that can spark feelings of grief and loss, not only stress, but also grief and loss. So you know, having that understanding about leapfrogging as well, it's not just that this thing, it's an everybody thing. Everybody has their own unique experiences of dating, of divorce of loss of, of all of it, it's in it's kind of a wild crucible when we're talking about divorce and relationships, because they're so pinnacle for us, like we do a lot of, we do a lot of things and Pinnacle relationships. So like, it's, they're pretty important. Yeah, I'm really appreciate you saying that.
Sade
Yeah. 100%. So you had your first relationship? Was that and you you met you knew her in person? When did you get on the dating apps
Wendy
Oh God, that was that was when I had moved to Seattle, during my first year of sober recovery. And it was eating disorder recovery, I ended up stopping drinking at the same time. So I think it was when I had moved to Seattle, there was another relationship that I had tried to have long term when I moved from New York to Seattle. And it ended after like, a year and a half ish, 15 months something. And I was devastated. Like I, I felt more heartbroken than during my divorce.
With this relationship that was less than half the leg it was it was the relationship that just I crumbled in. So fetal position, frequently, for a long time, I ended up going to try dance classes at the Century Ballroom shout out here in Seattle. So I could like meet people with appropriate touch and just sort of like, not really get super attached, but also have some fun and get myself out of the house.
Dating apps were kind of around that period as well. And so it was it was a lot of spiked emotion. For me, it was a lot of adrenalized very playful, super flirty time for me. Um, and I'm a writer, as well. So like, I can come across as like, fun and hilarious and all those things. Part of the Gemini nature, I suppose.
But I really was having so much fun with it. And at the same time. I was not my most mature self, not emotionally mature, not like it was I think I tried to date one or two people at a time. And that just blew up in my freaking face. Because most of the people that I were talking to, were just really ready to have the one thing you said dating was not really a thing.
Sade
People are always like, well, nobody else wants to commit and how people look for the one.
Wendy
They called it dating. Not really
Sade
Fascinated by that. And there's no have any scientific proof that we just have experiential proof that who we connect with who we find or who finds us on the apps is a reflection of the next thing we need to learn. Right. Right. And so a lot of my clients come in, and they're like, Well, I've been on the outs and all I get is this and these are the people that like me, and I've sweated 5000 people.
And I'm like, because they think that that means that there's no good they're no good people on the apps like no one wants to commitment no one who wants to run. But what I ended up teaching them is that well, the reason like you have to talk with 5000 people and then still come and hire me is that you didn't learn, like you bring in different learning from each one to the next one. Right, right.
Wendy
Well and this is similar to like when people plants come to me and they're like, I've been I've had the same pattern, the same issue over and over again. They may have like married and divorced the same sort of person and had the same patterns over and over again. Yes. Yeah. Yes.
Sade
You can’t see your own patterns like you can't you just cannot away blind spots? Yep. Yes. That's why we read books. This is why we listen to videos is why we have coaches and therapists to help us see, you know, those patterns. And when my clients finally see the patterns, like it's just my favorite moment in coaching. When I've had a woman like, I'm like, Okay, the next 10 dates, just do the swiping my way. Evaluations my way, and let's see what happens.
And it's always my favorite thing when they're like, oh, oh, I see. Some of the criteria I was using to swipe left. See, notice some people had nothing to do with those people? Because here I am dating this person who would have been a No, before I work with you. I'm actually not too bad. They're not the one but they're not bad.
Wendy
Really? Bright. They're a one dateable date.
Sade
Yes. Versus the 25 Horrible creepy dates that they've had before.
Wendy
Yeah, let's not have those.
Sade
So like, the people who like swiped on you and met you, they could take away the message. Well, everyone on here is here to just kind of chill and, you know, have fun and date multiple people. But you know, you could also be like, well, everybody wants a girlfriend. I know what's happening,
Wendy
right. And for me, some of that too, was I didn't know what I wanted. Like, I use dating apps for some of my, like grief and loss as a distraction. So, Okay, I was avoiding my own feelings. And let's go meet somebody new. That's a surefire way to meet the exact same person again, again and again.
Sade
On the dating apps, using them as distractions. It's all part of everybody's journey. I literally have no judgment. Yeah. I have, you know, women who are on the apps to see Well, anybody liked me for validation. I know, men are on there for validation. I know people who go on there for the relationship. This much, man, that's just your journey. 100% of my clients over and over. I'm like, Yeah, of course, there's all kinds of people on the apps, but there's your journey, and nothing can get in the way
Wendy
of that. Right. Right. I think that would have been like, useful for me. At the time. This was like pre swiped dating apps. Like there was no swiping happening. This is like, long ago. So you know, if I had had a coach at that time, where I was, What are you getting on the apps for? What do you what are you hoping for there? And then let's be sure that we're actually going after that? Because that's what you want? Yeah.
Sade
But we're here to check it out.
Wendy
Right, what's up? Right? Let's have like the intentional experiment, because one thing that I was like, Oh, I don't really like how I behaved in some of those encounters. And at the same time, I got exactly what I needed every time to move on from Yes, yeah. Oh
Sade
I love that. I love how you don't shame yourself for that.
Wendy
Thank you. That's, you know,
Sade
This is what's, you know, I just feel like the journey to maturity in relationships does require that experimentation, whatever that looks like for each people you're going to have to explore typically, with my clients, depending on where they're at. If they haven't dated much before. I'm like, Listen, your first 15 dates. We're gathering data and exploring, okay, please don't look for your husband. In the first 15 dates, let's just naïve. Okay, because if you married your middle school, boyfriend or girlfriend, you put them for 20 years and then got divorced three years ago, and then you're getting on the app. Like, you have no data.
Wendy
There's zero. There is zero.
Sade
Yeah, yeah. It's like, insight in many ways, like careers. His whole journey.
Wendy
Oh my gosh, yeah. Yeah, it's a different kind of resume. Like with the apps versus the the other thing, but yeah, totally. Totally.
Sade
You might have to try someone for sighs Yeah. So did you get off the apps are you like, oh my god, people just want relationships. This is terrible. And oh, I didn't
Wendy
How I was feeling I didn't like how I was behaving. I didn't like how I was obsessing. So I put myself on restriction. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. If I'm, if I'm not drinking, I'm also not tapping. Not dating apps. No. Can I have an addictive flavor for you felt like it Just in terms of the let's check again, let's check again like Did somebody wink at me or smile at me or whatever the hell that they're doing now. Like, I didn't like the obsessive check in aspect for me. Like it took up a lot of my time. It took up a lot of my energy. And there was a point where it was really fun. But it was also there was a point where I was really done.
Sade
Yeah. So it's interesting. You weren't looking for a relationship. But you were obsessing over what people? Validation from the people what it was, yeah. What do you think that was?
Wendy
That was I was looking for approval or distraction in terms of flirtation? Like, like, yeah, okay, that's fun. What did you say, Okay, what do you say, Okay, what she was like, you know, my own personal soap opera a few different times. And I think I had a higher tolerance for drama, as well. Hmm.
Sade
You know, I have my own stories. They're like, yes, yeah.
Wendy
Yeah. So it's okay, that that happened. And that's true. And real that that happened. I don't love every minute of that. Or, you know, I'm not proud of every bit of what I contributed to all of that. But no, like, there was also a point where I didn't like it anymore. I didn't like who I was anymore. I didn't like that. I was only looking externally. That was the distraction piece. Some of it was really fun. And I met some gorgeous, gorgeous people that I'm still in contact with. But not everybody. And no.
Sade
Yeah, yeah. So it sounds like you still had healing. Because if you cut it off, like, it's like, Okay, I'm going to stop drinking. I'm going to stop being on the apps, but there's still a healing that has to be done to heal that desire for approval. How did you do that?
Wendy
Oh, that's still happening. Well, that's still happening. Right. Right. So like, for the most part, it was. Okay, let's go with where I'm, oh, that's such a good question. Before I like, let me just think about that for a second. Because yeah, yeah, that was all along that was how do I want to be who and how do I want to be? And that has nothing to do with anybody else. If nobody else was ever to give me like, a wink or a smile or whatever, or right swipe? or Yes, please. How would I want to be?
Sade
Yeah, showing up as the person you want to be? Means that you get you have your own approval.
Wendy
Exactly. Exactly. And that's something that Serena Hicks our coaches said recently and talked about is like creating that safety inside. Yeah, yeah, yep. Yep. Yep. So the more I was like, Oh, I'm just gonna go ahead and take care of myself and, and just allow other people to come in and then also go as they desire for me to, like, say what I desire or would prefer and then be okay with being the person to take care of my own needs.
Sade
Oh, that's, that's like a whole that is. I know, that's not enlightenment. But
Wendy
It took a long. Yeah, yeah. And to be able to do that with somebody. I mean, it was amazing. Jennifer, my wife and I, we speak the same language around, what, what is that? It was so great. She told a story recently. Just around somebody, somebody said to somebody else, what are you looking for in a relationship, I'm looking for security, and safety and compassion, and intimacy and da da da and all these things. And the person looks to the other person who just gave that big litany and said, actually, the person that you're in a relationship with is giving you you get love from them. All the rest of the things you just listed that's on you to get for yourself. Ooh, which was like,
Sade
Whoa, he wants to hear that. It's like wait, what?
Wendy
Yeah, so part of me is like it's so that's so resonates, and part of me also wants to vomit.
Sade
So I'm just you know, that like, even when we recognize that I think the the reason it feels so painful initially is because we've been conditioned that the opposite was supposed to, we've been working for the opposite. We've been hustling like we were told to
Wendy
Right I'm looking for the list. Yeah.
Sade
It's like, I mean, I remember being told as a person, okay? You gotta know how to cook. Because you need to know how to cook for your husband and know how to clean, like all the things that are just all of these things. And so it's like, Listen, if I'm doing all this while I better be this, I guess gonna get paid?
Wendy
Yeah. Where's the provider part? Yeah.
Sade
The social status, the empathy, all of those things, and it's very transactional the way. And I think it's a global culture issue, that we talk about relationships, versus being taught to have that first relationship with ourselves.
Wendy
Oh, my gosh, yeah. If we started out with, actually having a relationship with ourselves, it would radically change so much, because it's radically changed. Like me post divorce, and now me mid marriage.
Sade
Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. That's amazing. The I love that you talked about just that, like desire for approval. I mean, a lot of what happens in my practices, helping my clients, those who have it, like not everyone, people come at different stages of their journey. It could take a little longer for people who are still really in the grasp of the desire for approval, the desire for security, more, when they don't see their own personal value. And sometimes we have to do I love to do the work at the same time. So that whenever that moment comes right there, they meet their person, somebody will do all of that work before and then boom, they'll meet someone, I have a client who met her person in new record, less than eight weeks.
Wendy
Well, John persons, oh, that's exciting.
Sade
8 week's advertising that I'm going to tell you a story, but I am not going to put that on my messaging, because I don't
Wendy
write, that's a big promise. It's a big promise.
Sade
But I recognize that the level of that undercurrent of approval or security, the level that a person comes with, often determines the length of that journey.
Wendy
Yeah, that totally makes sense. And, you know, we can, like, want and need approval, but like, having it from the inside is way different than trying to make it happen externally.
Sade
Get somebody else who's not thinking about you, while only thinking about you a small portion of the time if they actually love you.
Wendy
Oh, my gosh, feel this deep.
Sade
Like, yeah, this person to do it that you can rely on to do it every time is yourself.
Wendy
Right? Right. somebody's dying of thirst and walking around with a water bottle on them. And then they're looking for water everywhere else, but like, the bottle they already have. Totally.
Sade
Yes. Oh my gosh, that's so good. So good. Okay, so we're kind of coming to the end of our conversation, like, is there any part of your story that you feel like we haven't touched on that could really be a value to the listeners?
Wendy
You know, I have a story. I'm not super proud of it. But I think it would really be illustrative just based on what we've been talking about around self sufficiency and sovereignty versus expectations externally. Part of when I was going to Salsa dance class to learn how to do some social dancing, which I love. I signed up to be a follow. So there's a lead. And then there's the follow in social dancing. And so I signed up to be a follow. I'm pretty much, charge ahead sort of person. And so I took it on as a follow kind of as, like spiritual experiment, like I was early in recovery, could I actually follow? This has to do with surrender, right? This has to do with relinquishment of control.
And there was a person that I will never forget this. And she was a lead and she was we were paired up for a dance and she looked at me mid, mid, whatever. I don't know what mid song is. And she's like, you know, um, you know, you're leading yourself here, right? Like, it was like, I had such a strong sense of, wanting to retain control that I was doing something called back leading not proud of this, but like my like, Okay, I'm paired up with you as the lead and I'm the follow but I'm gonna make it look like hashtag manipulation.
I'm gonna make it look like and seem like we're doing what? What you want to do? No. She said, you know you're leading yourself here. I'm like, yeah like I was able to say that immediately in the moment. But that was also my experiment of like, okay Wendy that really showed me a lot about how my back leading and I was doing it in more than dating.
I wanted control. I wanted a certain outcome. I wanted to make it happen. I was taught to do that. And that's was not working in that dance relationship. I will. I'm so grateful to that person. I will never forget that story.
Sade
Yeah, yeah. That awareness. I love your awareness in the moment. Yeah. Like, yeah, you caught me. Yeah, yeah, no, good. I love how like, we think people don't notice. Oh, gosh,
Wendy
They can feel it. Oh, my gosh, if you had somebody who was back leading you and manipulating you, when you're, trying to dance with them, like up close, and they're you're in their arms are there and you're like, Yeah, you're gonna know.
Sade
Yeah, yeah. I want I want to find another word for for money. Because manipulation sounds really malicious and negative does. You know, and most people are really just trying to like, I don't know, keep themselves safe. Yeah. In the search for approval, or like wanting to retain control wanting to protect themselves. And then we're doing this thing where we're giving off this thing, energy. Yep. And hoping or thinking or believing that people don't notice.
And I'm constantly telling my clients listen, they notice, like, we've got to work on the energy, we've got to make sure that the energy that you are stepping out into this date with is real, and true and true to you. Because if you are saying yes to everything the man talks about, because you really liked him and you want him to like you, he may not consciously feel it, but he will feel it subconsciously. Right. Right. And so we got to work on that, like you got to work on like, who you are, when you are in your home is the same person that you are, and you're good with that.
Wendy
Right? Well, and some of that too. Like, you know, my awareness was very limited for a long, long time, because it wasn't safe for me to like to be out. Like I was, I was straight until I was out and then I was out and that was it. So, you know, being good with what you're aware of in the moment. Because you're gonna get aware of more if you want to. Yeah, totally Well,
Sade
yeah, amazing. Like just having that compassion for yourself wherever you are doing the work, but being like, Yep, here. Here's where I am even being able to laugh at it. I I remember that from my remote recovery days, like myself and the other women we just miss laughed, we just like so needed point out all of our like behaviors. That was mine. Now it's so funny, it wasn't so fun, then we totally not to do that to survive it. But
Wendy
To identify it, though, I mean, that's healing to. Oh, I'm so glad.
Sade
Thank you. Thank you for sharing your story. Um, I want to ask a little more about your work like when clients come to work with you what, what's usually like the where are they usually? What are the triggers that say, Hey, I got a cut to work with Wendy, you got to give him that ball.
Wendy
Thank you. Thank you. Sometimes it has to do with shock. And I need like some sort of immediate support. There was a person who came to me when somebody had asked her, her partner of eight years had asked her for a divorce that she did not want. And so coming to terms with that it was like the initial shock. It's never too early to begin grief healing, and that is an exact, excellent place of support.
What else also happens is like we carry along lots of things that we haven't processed emotionally. And so sometimes it's a move sometimes it's a divorce, sometimes somebody died. Death and divorce are the two big D's in terms of like the biggest causes for grief and loss feelings. Yeah. But there are 40 plus other plain ol’ life events that can bring about grief and loss. So we like kind of pack them in. We've been taught to do that conditioned to do that. So a lot of times it's several changes that have happened in succession and then the family pet dies. And they're like, I'm done. I need some help and support immediately because I can't handle that Blackie died or that, you know, you my parrot died or whatever it is like sometimes it's just the capper.
Sade
Yes, yeah, yeah. And you know, we, and I know you were supposed to be telling them we were going to be wrapping up. But grief is like a huge part of like, you know, my journey and my clients work. Recognizing that, in some ways grief is part of living where we are constantly experiencing loss.
Wendy
Oh my gosh, yeah. Because we're constantly experiencing change. We are so like, you know, how does it look, and I really want the fun ones. So I don't have time for the ones that are going to, quote unquote, drag me down until you can't deny them anymore. And that's been my journey again and again and again.
Sade
Yeah. And then what does the after look like? So after they've worked with you, what is the what are the outcomes that typically you are shooting for?
Wendy
Yeah, usually it happens, like, here's the thing like in my work with people wins, and momentum happened immediately. So people can start to feel a little bit better, and a little bit better and a little bit better. And that little bit better gains momentum. So what I tend to shoot for is a sense of spaciousness and capacity.
When I was in the, like, deepest part of my grief journey, I was at a place where I was like, listen, life, nothing else better happen, because I can't handle it. And life doesn't really negotiate like that. So I needed to do something different. And then that was on me. So when I was at that point of, like, kind of my life was getting so small, that I wanted to be just available for a fun and laughing and I wanted to experience you know, just plain old life as being either Okay, or above, okay, that's what I was shooting for personally.
What I tend to shoot for now is like a sense of peace and knowing and capacity, and we're not trying to talk anybody out of their feelings that they're having. But we're also going to acknowledge that this is not the destination. It doesn't have to be.
Sade
Love it. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for sharing your story and your work with the listeners really appreciate it.
Wendy
So, so great. I'm so pleased and grateful that you asked, thank you shut down. You're welcome.
Sade
All right, listeners, this has been such a good one. I just feel so much like, joy from this conversation. Just it's really validated. There's so many parts of my own experience. So this is I want to encourage you to follow Wendy, her social media handles on her podcast link will be in the show notes. We all experience grief. So her work and her message, I think will be applicable to all of us. We want to thank you for your time and attention. And we will see you next time. Thanks, Wendy.
Wendy
Listen, it's already hard enough. It's plenty hard enough. And support is available in my goinginside.me program. That is actually the web address as well. If you're finding that you would prefer to be more responsive and less reactive. This is the place for you. This may seem obvious, but I'll share it anyway. We humans take most of our actions based on feelings.
So this includes reactivity. This includes distraction, this includes numbing out, it includes all of it, mostly we just don't know how to do it. So goinginside.me is where we practice and normalize what's actually happening in your life and world. It's a group coaching program as well as a course of modules. This is available. I'd love for you to join me. Go to goinginside.me and check it out. You are 100% invited and you deserve to be supported. Now.
You are listening to Emergence from Life's Biggest Obstacles with Wendy Sloneker. This is podcast episode number 11. Hello, welcome and welcome back. Hey, I'm doing something a little bit different. I've never done this before in all of my podcasting between my heart healing from last project. And this new one, I have never had a podcast sort of replayed on to my podcast. What What am I talking about?
Hey, I have this fantastic experience with a dating after divorce coach named Sade Curry, please click her info in the show notes because she's a generous and grounded delight of a human. So I ended up being a guest on her podcast, and then I got permission to play it on my podcast for you, too. So this is different. I ended up sharing some stories with Sade and her audience about my experience in grief and emergence and dating after divorce from my personal realms.
So this is a little different purview into me my experience and one or two stories that I rarely share. So this is how safe Sade Curry sets a space, like IE up or talking about things that I rarely do. And certainly, I don't think I've ever really talked about one or two of the stories, especially the salsa dancing story I have, I don't think I've ever shared that on my any of my projects. So enjoy, sit back, relax, shadows, going to take the mic from here. And please enjoy her. Please connect with her if this isn't your pleasure, or you feel a resonance with her material. Link is in the show notes to her podcast and her website. Such a delight. I give you Sade Curry. Yeah. All right. And I'll talk to you next week.
Sade Curry
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Dating After Divorce Podcast. It is good to be back. I've been off for a couple of weeks just doing some r&r and collected myself and just really enjoying taking some time to enjoy the summer. But I'm glad to be back and I have a special treat for you with this episode. Back in July.
I have with me my friend, coach, colleague and fellow podcast host Wendy Sloneker here in the Zoom Room. And Wendy is a grief and emergence coach, and he is the host of hang on let me get the podcast name right. I covered it up Emergence from Life's Biggest Obstacles. And it is something that felt like the one of life's biggest obstacles. It was divorce. So Wendy is here to tell her story and drop all the gems about how we can move through grief heal, grow emerge. Wendy, welcome to the podcast. It is a delight to have you here.
Wendy
Hi, today. Hi, everybody. I'm thrilled and a half to be here.
Sade
Yes, thank you. Thank you for coming in and tell the listeners who you are what you do. What is an emergence coach, like we want to
Wendy
Thank you. This is like this is pretty new to me as well. So emergence happened, like it was dropped on me divinely like, oh, Wendy, I think grief, you've been working in grief and loss for three or four years now. And what I've, what I received was this word called emergence as a coach, it was in a mastermind. And it's with a coach that we share. And so like emergence just came to me in terms of ah, yeah, this is this is the direction. The idea here is that, yes, it's navigating, change and shift and transformation. But it's also implying that there's another side like grief is not something we work through and just get stuck in and hang out in and camp out in for years. This is something we emerge from this is something we can transcend. And this is not the destination, so let's keep going.
Sade
Yes. Oh yes. I love that. I mean, that resonates so hard. I know that resonates with the listeners because like divorce is just such a journey with so many cycles of meaning and emerge and grieving and emerging. So yeah, that definitely that definitely hits home. But we're here to hear your story. And I want to, I'm going to be listening for all the like emergence in there because I've read there's a ton. Whoa, have your own divorce story, your own journey. Let's start with where you are like, what does relationship look like for you now? And then we'll talk about how you got here.
Wendy
All right. Right now relationship looks like married partnership with a rambunctious dog that, I don't know. Like, we don't have biological children, either one of us, but I'm married to a woman. And she's amazing. And honestly, we met when I was 41. And I, we met in 12 Step Rooms. And so we each sort of got there, I was entered, not entertaining, I was inside of a brand new program, it was called Al Anon, it's still called out on on, but like I was new to that.
And the reason that I was there is I wanted a relationship. I had been sober for six years. And I really wanted a relationship where I could be a responsible adult. Not more on that later. Exactly. But also like, you know, there were, make sure that I talked about the dating apps, because I cannot like I'm not a responsible person. When it comes to dating apps, like that is a place where I put myself on restriction. No.
So anyway, so we met and I was 40-41, I was also doing things that I had never done before. Like, I was a Go Go dancer at 41. And that's when I met my wife, Jennifer. And it was not a full time thing. It was just something I had never done before. And so I wanted to get up and do it. So I was doing that I didn't meet her go go dancing. I met her and Al Anon. But honestly, when I look back, I was not ready for this relationship. Anytime before we met. Like that would have been something that would have felt too good to like, I wasn't good enough for this kind of peace for this kind of ease for the effortlessness and the support that just comes easily in this one, I wasn't ready. I would have burned it down.
Sade
I hear that How long have you been together?
Wendy
We've been together it'll be 14 years. On next week. Yeah,
Sade
So this isn't new. This isn't still trying it out. If you've had peace for 14 years, that's real.
Wendy
Ah, and like I've grown and she's grown in her ways, but also in our ways since then, like she's seen me move through a lot of different facets of career and shift around work and I've been there and just supported you know, her and us emotionally without getting in her business. Yeah, I love that thing.
Sade
I know recently you celebrated 20 years sober
Wendy
Thank you yeah
Sade
my my journey into coaching started with Christian 12 Step. Celebrate Recovery so I definitely am with the on there with the with the 12 steps.
Wendy
Thank you for telling me
Sade
Absolutely it was saved my life because I was like the day before I separated from my ex I had no idea that I had codependency issues literally at 39-40. I was like, oh look, my life is unmanageable. Interesting. That's fantastic. You start again, so tell. You know what brought you to that moment where you met Jennifer in Al Anon.
Wendy
What brought me to that moment Oh, pretty much every single freaking day before that. I my divorce story, actually, I think I'll just like head back there to the divorce story. I was married to a delightful man. For three years. We were together a total of eight years. And you know, the I started going to therapy and getting some counseling, because I was afraid. This was something that was just mine. In my inner experience, I was afraid that the next step was going to be I was supposed to have a kid.
And so I went to get some support just to like, talk about that process that that had nothing to do with this lovely man who like that was the most I knew of love. And it was real. And it was lovely. And then when I discovered, and it was like an epiphany awakening, I have grown up with the idea, this was not part of my growing up family, but my inside experience was everyone somewhere on the sexuality scale. So I happened to be somewhere that I had identified as a straight white woman for, you know, like most of my life until I had an experience where I was no longer able to deny, like these feelings, it was like a wake up call. And it had to do with one person that I had known for a long time, but saw in a different way.
And I'm so proud that I didn't have to sleep with her in order to, like confirm, it was just unknowing on on me that was inside of me. And I was no longer able to deny that, wait a minute, this feels real. And what it looks like or what I should be doing is no longer in play. So the first person I told was my now ex husband, and it was brutal. It was freaking awful, it was certainly not something I ever wanted to.
If I had known going into that relationship and marriage, that I would one day be coming out as a lesbian. That is not something I would have done. Yeah, at all. So you know that I recently, not recently, I shortly after I came out, ended up having an opportunity to move to New York. So it was like, it all just came like to a head I had lived most of my life in the Bay Area of California.
And then I had an opportunity to move across the country and work in theater, which is where my undergrad is in. And so there was just a lot of opportunity for change and identity shift. And so it was November when I moved across the country, I had been out of the house that we had shared for about six months, 3,4,6 months, I can't remember now this was 2002 and moved across the country.
That was culture shock. That was identity shift. That was grief and loss. My parents at the time were really struggling with what do you mean? What are you talking about? You're coming you're what? And there was a lot of it's just a phase sort of thing that was discussed and then re discussed and then late, let's discuss that again. Because
Sade
How old are you at this at this?
Wendy
Oh, my God, I was. I was what was I? 35? Yeah, possibly No, my own self?
Sade
No way. Like, let's, let's all weigh in here that she's very sure about, but we're not sure about,
Wendy
Right. It's just such a like something they never expected something that was so shocking that they needed to go through and grieve and I could not be there for them in that. Like that. I know, I got mine. And I finally at some point was like, listen, I, I can't talk about this anymore, unless you're going to support me in whatever way.
Sade
Interesting that you know, and I don't want to put a name on it like enmeshment or whatever. But I am a parent of you know, grown children kind of on the cusp at this point. And I recognize that temptation to not see them as sovereign humans.
Wendy
Yeah. Yeah.
Sade
Like we've been in this appropriately codependent relationship for 18 years, where all of your choices, were you honorable and all that I'm responsible and in charge. And, you know, we're working this out together. And without self awareness or an understanding of appropriate relationships individuation it's very easy to just continue seeing your child in that light, right, like 35, it's like, well, yeah, we need to discuss this.
Wendy
Right. Right. And so that, you know, like putting that in a way where, actually nothing's wrong. This is simply a direction. This is a truth of mine that I am. And I'm going in this direction. I'm actually not asking for permission. This is where I'm going. And you know that that certainly does have consequences that certainly have, there was upheaval, there was a lot of confusion, there was hurt. And there was also just not knowing. Yeah, plenty of not knowing.
Sade
Yeah, how did you feel because the, you know, I'm all I always reference the stress scale, like the life incidents that have the highest number of points for stress, and divorce tends to have a cluster of them. So it's not just the one it's a divorce by itself, I think it's the second highest, but cluster around divorce is then moving, which is one of the top 10 as well, changes in financial situation complex. There are like five that cluster around divorce. So like when you add up the stress points for divorce, and everything that goes with it, it tends to be like really, really high. Yeah, what were you experiencing?
Wendy
Are you not most of it, I was on such a, like, I felt like I had, I had gone through some sort of transformation. It was like, a deepening. But it was also a way for me to tell this truth that had I'd never entertained or considered for myself, I was just always kind of like, okay, well, what am I supposed to be doing next? Versus what do I want next? And so that kind of like, overshadowed thought about like, what do other people think? Or what will other people say?
This is not okay, there was that that had felt so freeing. And in the middle of telling my truth, there were a lot of people who felt a lot of hurt and anger, reasonably 100%, reasonably, some of the challenging feelings didn't really come until later for me. And some of that has to do with like, I had this whole new identity that I had never explored. There was a sense of more pleasure and presence in where I was going, right.
So I had somewhere really, like, wild and incredible and knew to go and it was this whole culture that I was gonna swim in. And so it was kind of like having another adolescence. One where, like, I was clear, and I was present. And I knew about some of my own working parts and what didn't work around partnership and intimacy and this sort of thing, but it was on a freer level.
Yeah, some of this also included a lot of shame. When I was disclosing and coming out to people that that I hadn't known earlier. Right. Like, I, there was no way I could have known earlier. And there was no way ultimately, eventually that I should have known earlier. So when I let myself off the hook from that. Yeah, that's where some real healing also began. That was just acceptance of my story and my path.
Sade
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's powerful. So it sounds like the sort of the joy and freedom that came from him fully being myself now, almost like ameliorated the I'm moving across the country and taking the subway and I don't know if you have to climb five flights of stairs to your apartment in New York, because that craziness happens over there. Like, right, right. That happening, and it almost seems like it balanced it out. I don't know. Is that does that sound?
Wendy
I would say yeah, I think it was more like there was more to focus on that was unknown and exciting. I felt like things had been really opening up by me coming out and coming to this realization, but then also, you know, I could see and empathize with you know, it was not an opening up for others. Like with my ex husband, we ended up going to counseling to end the marriage. And so we hadn't been to counseling before it was. It was a perfectly excellent relationship. Like we didn't fight we didn't, you know, do have a lot of problems around that relationship. It was super loving and that's when I knew of love at the time. Yeah.
Sade
Yeah. Yeah. Love that you went to counseling or that. That's very conscious.
Wendy
I was really proud of myself for that. I mean, that was something that like one, I'm really proud that I didn't sleep with the person that kind of like, was a catalyst for my own awakening. I didn't sleep with them her hit them at this point. And I haven't really talked to them in a while, either. So like, yeah, I was proud of that, but also going to counseling, either just to talk it out in a facilitated way or to end it. Mine was to my priority was like, I want to end this well. And I'm not sure what his was other than I'm so glad he agreed to it.
Sade
Yeah, yeah. That's so good. So what came next you? Yeah, you're in New York, you're living free. Yeah.
Wendy
It's like wild, like some of the things that just ridiculous. Like, I moved in November, I drove across country. And I moved to New York without a coat. I was like, oh, that's what Northern California people do is like they move over. And let's just say things. And so let's ridic like, let that just be an example of me going into the entire lesbian culture, right? I was without a coat in November in New York.
But so, so much I didn't know so much I didn't really, like, understand or get until I had a lived experience. Primarily this had to do with, with my first girlfriend, who like knew completely had known my husband, we had known each other for a while I had worked in theater when she lived in San Jose.
And like, we worked great together on backstage projects. And so that's how I got my first job in theater in New York. And honestly, that, like I was coming out of a marriage and into a new, completely new identity. And then, you know, this person was looking for somebody for a very long term, like, please don't make me date, again, kind of relationship. And so when she asked me, Hey, can I call you my girlfriend? My experience was, while she's not asking to get married, so girlfriend means for me committed.
And for me, that also meant monogamous. And it did not mean wife, however, like, my experience of that in lesbian culture was like, it's closer than it's closer to wife, then girlfriend in that capacity. So that was a big learning curve around communication, what are we talking about? Exactly. But I was in such an adolescent phase as well, that I was like, okay. Yeah, here's what I'm hearing. Here's what I'm not hearing.
Sade
Know that you have, I think, okay, so, as a dating coach, and I talk to my clients, my listeners, and humans out in the world about dating. I don't think that's, I think that's like a, everybody thinks that it wasn't an adolescent. Literally, I have a moment in my program, where I talked to people about understand frames of reference, ensure that you clarify frames of reference, right?
Relationships, so huge. And what that you might be using the same words could mean completely different things. Just this is the perfect example. And so when my clients meet people, I'm always like, okay, so what did he because they what they do is the other term that we then use is leapfrogging so they hear something and then they leapfrog to the picture they have in their brain. And so my job as a coach is to say, okay, so he said, he wanted to have kids with you. And you took that to mean he's committing to you and you're eventually going to get married and have kids I said, so he said this You leapfrog to that do is actually get curious. By that.
Wendy
Tell me more. Is there a timeline? What are we talking about?
Sade
Me like tonight, right? Off birth control one that park. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think that's I think that's a beautiful illustration of just understanding the frames of reference are important, especially if we're approaching relationships with a mature adult mind, where we don't assume what other people are seeing where we assume that other people are a universe unto themselves. Want to get curious and know this person and what they're thinking and what what they're saying means
Wendy
Amazing. This is also like when you were talking about the levels of stress, like all the things that you mentioned, shoddy were like, also things that can spark feelings of grief and loss, not only stress, but also grief and loss. So you know, having that understanding about leapfrogging as well, it's not just that this thing, it's an everybody thing. Everybody has their own unique experiences of dating, of divorce of loss of, of all of it, it's in it's kind of a wild crucible when we're talking about divorce and relationships, because they're so pinnacle for us, like we do a lot of, we do a lot of things and Pinnacle relationships. So like, it's, they're pretty important. Yeah, I'm really appreciate you saying that.
Sade
Yeah. 100%. So you had your first relationship? Was that and you you met you knew her in person? When did you get on the dating apps
Wendy
Oh God, that was that was when I had moved to Seattle, during my first year of sober recovery. And it was eating disorder recovery, I ended up stopping drinking at the same time. So I think it was when I had moved to Seattle, there was another relationship that I had tried to have long term when I moved from New York to Seattle. And it ended after like, a year and a half ish, 15 months something. And I was devastated. Like I, I felt more heartbroken than during my divorce.
With this relationship that was less than half the leg it was it was the relationship that just I crumbled in. So fetal position, frequently, for a long time, I ended up going to try dance classes at the Century Ballroom shout out here in Seattle. So I could like meet people with appropriate touch and just sort of like, not really get super attached, but also have some fun and get myself out of the house.
Dating apps were kind of around that period as well. And so it was it was a lot of spiked emotion. For me, it was a lot of adrenalized very playful, super flirty time for me. Um, and I'm a writer, as well. So like, I can come across as like, fun and hilarious and all those things. Part of the Gemini nature, I suppose.
But I really was having so much fun with it. And at the same time. I was not my most mature self, not emotionally mature, not like it was I think I tried to date one or two people at a time. And that just blew up in my freaking face. Because most of the people that I were talking to, were just really ready to have the one thing you said dating was not really a thing.
Sade
People are always like, well, nobody else wants to commit and how people look for the one.
Wendy
They called it dating. Not really
Sade
Fascinated by that. And there's no have any scientific proof that we just have experiential proof that who we connect with who we find or who finds us on the apps is a reflection of the next thing we need to learn. Right. Right. And so a lot of my clients come in, and they're like, Well, I've been on the outs and all I get is this and these are the people that like me, and I've sweated 5000 people.
And I'm like, because they think that that means that there's no good they're no good people on the apps like no one wants to commitment no one who wants to run. But what I ended up teaching them is that well, the reason like you have to talk with 5000 people and then still come and hire me is that you didn't learn, like you bring in different learning from each one to the next one. Right, right.
Wendy
Well and this is similar to like when people plants come to me and they're like, I've been I've had the same pattern, the same issue over and over again. They may have like married and divorced the same sort of person and had the same patterns over and over again. Yes. Yeah. Yes.
Sade
You can’t see your own patterns like you can't you just cannot away blind spots? Yep. Yes. That's why we read books. This is why we listen to videos is why we have coaches and therapists to help us see, you know, those patterns. And when my clients finally see the patterns, like it's just my favorite moment in coaching. When I've had a woman like, I'm like, Okay, the next 10 dates, just do the swiping my way. Evaluations my way, and let's see what happens.
And it's always my favorite thing when they're like, oh, oh, I see. Some of the criteria I was using to swipe left. See, notice some people had nothing to do with those people? Because here I am dating this person who would have been a No, before I work with you. I'm actually not too bad. They're not the one but they're not bad.
Wendy
Really? Bright. They're a one dateable date.
Sade
Yes. Versus the 25 Horrible creepy dates that they've had before.
Wendy
Yeah, let's not have those.
Sade
So like, the people who like swiped on you and met you, they could take away the message. Well, everyone on here is here to just kind of chill and, you know, have fun and date multiple people. But you know, you could also be like, well, everybody wants a girlfriend. I know what's happening,
Wendy
right. And for me, some of that too, was I didn't know what I wanted. Like, I use dating apps for some of my, like grief and loss as a distraction. So, Okay, I was avoiding my own feelings. And let's go meet somebody new. That's a surefire way to meet the exact same person again, again and again.
Sade
On the dating apps, using them as distractions. It's all part of everybody's journey. I literally have no judgment. Yeah. I have, you know, women who are on the apps to see Well, anybody liked me for validation. I know, men are on there for validation. I know people who go on there for the relationship. This much, man, that's just your journey. 100% of my clients over and over. I'm like, Yeah, of course, there's all kinds of people on the apps, but there's your journey, and nothing can get in the way
Wendy
of that. Right. Right. I think that would have been like, useful for me. At the time. This was like pre swiped dating apps. Like there was no swiping happening. This is like, long ago. So you know, if I had had a coach at that time, where I was, What are you getting on the apps for? What do you what are you hoping for there? And then let's be sure that we're actually going after that? Because that's what you want? Yeah.
Sade
But we're here to check it out.
Wendy
Right, what's up? Right? Let's have like the intentional experiment, because one thing that I was like, Oh, I don't really like how I behaved in some of those encounters. And at the same time, I got exactly what I needed every time to move on from Yes, yeah. Oh
Sade
I love that. I love how you don't shame yourself for that.
Wendy
Thank you. That's, you know,
Sade
This is what's, you know, I just feel like the journey to maturity in relationships does require that experimentation, whatever that looks like for each people you're going to have to explore typically, with my clients, depending on where they're at. If they haven't dated much before. I'm like, Listen, your first 15 dates. We're gathering data and exploring, okay, please don't look for your husband. In the first 15 dates, let's just naïve. Okay, because if you married your middle school, boyfriend or girlfriend, you put them for 20 years and then got divorced three years ago, and then you're getting on the app. Like, you have no data.
Wendy
There's zero. There is zero.
Sade
Yeah, yeah. It's like, insight in many ways, like careers. His whole journey.
Wendy
Oh my gosh, yeah. Yeah, it's a different kind of resume. Like with the apps versus the the other thing, but yeah, totally. Totally.
Sade
You might have to try someone for sighs Yeah. So did you get off the apps are you like, oh my god, people just want relationships. This is terrible. And oh, I didn't
Wendy
How I was feeling I didn't like how I was behaving. I didn't like how I was obsessing. So I put myself on restriction. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. If I'm, if I'm not drinking, I'm also not tapping. Not dating apps. No. Can I have an addictive flavor for you felt like it Just in terms of the let's check again, let's check again like Did somebody wink at me or smile at me or whatever the hell that they're doing now. Like, I didn't like the obsessive check in aspect for me. Like it took up a lot of my time. It took up a lot of my energy. And there was a point where it was really fun. But it was also there was a point where I was really done.
Sade
Yeah. So it's interesting. You weren't looking for a relationship. But you were obsessing over what people? Validation from the people what it was, yeah. What do you think that was?
Wendy
That was I was looking for approval or distraction in terms of flirtation? Like, like, yeah, okay, that's fun. What did you say, Okay, what do you say, Okay, what she was like, you know, my own personal soap opera a few different times. And I think I had a higher tolerance for drama, as well. Hmm.
Sade
You know, I have my own stories. They're like, yes, yeah.
Wendy
Yeah. So it's okay, that that happened. And that's true. And real that that happened. I don't love every minute of that. Or, you know, I'm not proud of every bit of what I contributed to all of that. But no, like, there was also a point where I didn't like it anymore. I didn't like who I was anymore. I didn't like that. I was only looking externally. That was the distraction piece. Some of it was really fun. And I met some gorgeous, gorgeous people that I'm still in contact with. But not everybody. And no.
Sade
Yeah, yeah. So it sounds like you still had healing. Because if you cut it off, like, it's like, Okay, I'm going to stop drinking. I'm going to stop being on the apps, but there's still a healing that has to be done to heal that desire for approval. How did you do that?
Wendy
Oh, that's still happening. Well, that's still happening. Right. Right. So like, for the most part, it was. Okay, let's go with where I'm, oh, that's such a good question. Before I like, let me just think about that for a second. Because yeah, yeah, that was all along that was how do I want to be who and how do I want to be? And that has nothing to do with anybody else. If nobody else was ever to give me like, a wink or a smile or whatever, or right swipe? or Yes, please. How would I want to be?
Sade
Yeah, showing up as the person you want to be? Means that you get you have your own approval.
Wendy
Exactly. Exactly. And that's something that Serena Hicks our coaches said recently and talked about is like creating that safety inside. Yeah, yeah, yep. Yep. Yep. So the more I was like, Oh, I'm just gonna go ahead and take care of myself and, and just allow other people to come in and then also go as they desire for me to, like, say what I desire or would prefer and then be okay with being the person to take care of my own needs.
Sade
Oh, that's, that's like a whole that is. I know, that's not enlightenment. But
Wendy
It took a long. Yeah, yeah. And to be able to do that with somebody. I mean, it was amazing. Jennifer, my wife and I, we speak the same language around, what, what is that? It was so great. She told a story recently. Just around somebody, somebody said to somebody else, what are you looking for in a relationship, I'm looking for security, and safety and compassion, and intimacy and da da da and all these things. And the person looks to the other person who just gave that big litany and said, actually, the person that you're in a relationship with is giving you you get love from them. All the rest of the things you just listed that's on you to get for yourself. Ooh, which was like,
Sade
Whoa, he wants to hear that. It's like wait, what?
Wendy
Yeah, so part of me is like it's so that's so resonates, and part of me also wants to vomit.
Sade
So I'm just you know, that like, even when we recognize that I think the the reason it feels so painful initially is because we've been conditioned that the opposite was supposed to, we've been working for the opposite. We've been hustling like we were told to
Wendy
Right I'm looking for the list. Yeah.
Sade
It's like, I mean, I remember being told as a person, okay? You gotta know how to cook. Because you need to know how to cook for your husband and know how to clean, like all the things that are just all of these things. And so it's like, Listen, if I'm doing all this while I better be this, I guess gonna get paid?
Wendy
Yeah. Where's the provider part? Yeah.
Sade
The social status, the empathy, all of those things, and it's very transactional the way. And I think it's a global culture issue, that we talk about relationships, versus being taught to have that first relationship with ourselves.
Wendy
Oh, my gosh, yeah. If we started out with, actually having a relationship with ourselves, it would radically change so much, because it's radically changed. Like me post divorce, and now me mid marriage.
Sade
Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. That's amazing. The I love that you talked about just that, like desire for approval. I mean, a lot of what happens in my practices, helping my clients, those who have it, like not everyone, people come at different stages of their journey. It could take a little longer for people who are still really in the grasp of the desire for approval, the desire for security, more, when they don't see their own personal value. And sometimes we have to do I love to do the work at the same time. So that whenever that moment comes right there, they meet their person, somebody will do all of that work before and then boom, they'll meet someone, I have a client who met her person in new record, less than eight weeks.
Wendy
Well, John persons, oh, that's exciting.
Sade
8 week's advertising that I'm going to tell you a story, but I am not going to put that on my messaging, because I don't
Wendy
write, that's a big promise. It's a big promise.
Sade
But I recognize that the level of that undercurrent of approval or security, the level that a person comes with, often determines the length of that journey.
Wendy
Yeah, that totally makes sense. And, you know, we can, like, want and need approval, but like, having it from the inside is way different than trying to make it happen externally.
Sade
Get somebody else who's not thinking about you, while only thinking about you a small portion of the time if they actually love you.
Wendy
Oh, my gosh, feel this deep.
Sade
Like, yeah, this person to do it that you can rely on to do it every time is yourself.
Wendy
Right? Right. somebody's dying of thirst and walking around with a water bottle on them. And then they're looking for water everywhere else, but like, the bottle they already have. Totally.
Sade
Yes. Oh my gosh, that's so good. So good. Okay, so we're kind of coming to the end of our conversation, like, is there any part of your story that you feel like we haven't touched on that could really be a value to the listeners?
Wendy
You know, I have a story. I'm not super proud of it. But I think it would really be illustrative just based on what we've been talking about around self sufficiency and sovereignty versus expectations externally. Part of when I was going to Salsa dance class to learn how to do some social dancing, which I love. I signed up to be a follow. So there's a lead. And then there's the follow in social dancing. And so I signed up to be a follow. I'm pretty much, charge ahead sort of person. And so I took it on as a follow kind of as, like spiritual experiment, like I was early in recovery, could I actually follow? This has to do with surrender, right? This has to do with relinquishment of control.
And there was a person that I will never forget this. And she was a lead and she was we were paired up for a dance and she looked at me mid, mid, whatever. I don't know what mid song is. And she's like, you know, um, you know, you're leading yourself here, right? Like, it was like, I had such a strong sense of, wanting to retain control that I was doing something called back leading not proud of this, but like my like, Okay, I'm paired up with you as the lead and I'm the follow but I'm gonna make it look like hashtag manipulation.
I'm gonna make it look like and seem like we're doing what? What you want to do? No. She said, you know you're leading yourself here. I'm like, yeah like I was able to say that immediately in the moment. But that was also my experiment of like, okay Wendy that really showed me a lot about how my back leading and I was doing it in more than dating.
I wanted control. I wanted a certain outcome. I wanted to make it happen. I was taught to do that. And that's was not working in that dance relationship. I will. I'm so grateful to that person. I will never forget that story.
Sade
Yeah, yeah. That awareness. I love your awareness in the moment. Yeah. Like, yeah, you caught me. Yeah, yeah, no, good. I love how like, we think people don't notice. Oh, gosh,
Wendy
They can feel it. Oh, my gosh, if you had somebody who was back leading you and manipulating you, when you're, trying to dance with them, like up close, and they're you're in their arms are there and you're like, Yeah, you're gonna know.
Sade
Yeah, yeah. I want I want to find another word for for money. Because manipulation sounds really malicious and negative does. You know, and most people are really just trying to like, I don't know, keep themselves safe. Yeah. In the search for approval, or like wanting to retain control wanting to protect themselves. And then we're doing this thing where we're giving off this thing, energy. Yep. And hoping or thinking or believing that people don't notice.
And I'm constantly telling my clients listen, they notice, like, we've got to work on the energy, we've got to make sure that the energy that you are stepping out into this date with is real, and true and true to you. Because if you are saying yes to everything the man talks about, because you really liked him and you want him to like you, he may not consciously feel it, but he will feel it subconsciously. Right. Right. And so we got to work on that, like you got to work on like, who you are, when you are in your home is the same person that you are, and you're good with that.
Wendy
Right? Well, and some of that too. Like, you know, my awareness was very limited for a long, long time, because it wasn't safe for me to like to be out. Like I was, I was straight until I was out and then I was out and that was it. So, you know, being good with what you're aware of in the moment. Because you're gonna get aware of more if you want to. Yeah, totally Well,
Sade
yeah, amazing. Like just having that compassion for yourself wherever you are doing the work, but being like, Yep, here. Here's where I am even being able to laugh at it. I I remember that from my remote recovery days, like myself and the other women we just miss laughed, we just like so needed point out all of our like behaviors. That was mine. Now it's so funny, it wasn't so fun, then we totally not to do that to survive it. But
Wendy
To identify it, though, I mean, that's healing to. Oh, I'm so glad.
Sade
Thank you. Thank you for sharing your story. Um, I want to ask a little more about your work like when clients come to work with you what, what's usually like the where are they usually? What are the triggers that say, Hey, I got a cut to work with Wendy, you got to give him that ball.
Wendy
Thank you. Thank you. Sometimes it has to do with shock. And I need like some sort of immediate support. There was a person who came to me when somebody had asked her, her partner of eight years had asked her for a divorce that she did not want. And so coming to terms with that it was like the initial shock. It's never too early to begin grief healing, and that is an exact, excellent place of support.
What else also happens is like we carry along lots of things that we haven't processed emotionally. And so sometimes it's a move sometimes it's a divorce, sometimes somebody died. Death and divorce are the two big D's in terms of like the biggest causes for grief and loss feelings. Yeah. But there are 40 plus other plain ol’ life events that can bring about grief and loss. So we like kind of pack them in. We've been taught to do that conditioned to do that. So a lot of times it's several changes that have happened in succession and then the family pet dies. And they're like, I'm done. I need some help and support immediately because I can't handle that Blackie died or that, you know, you my parrot died or whatever it is like sometimes it's just the capper.
Sade
Yes, yeah, yeah. And you know, we, and I know you were supposed to be telling them we were going to be wrapping up. But grief is like a huge part of like, you know, my journey and my clients work. Recognizing that, in some ways grief is part of living where we are constantly experiencing loss.
Wendy
Oh my gosh, yeah. Because we're constantly experiencing change. We are so like, you know, how does it look, and I really want the fun ones. So I don't have time for the ones that are going to, quote unquote, drag me down until you can't deny them anymore. And that's been my journey again and again and again.
Sade
Yeah. And then what does the after look like? So after they've worked with you, what is the what are the outcomes that typically you are shooting for?
Wendy
Yeah, usually it happens, like, here's the thing like in my work with people wins, and momentum happened immediately. So people can start to feel a little bit better, and a little bit better and a little bit better. And that little bit better gains momentum. So what I tend to shoot for is a sense of spaciousness and capacity.
When I was in the, like, deepest part of my grief journey, I was at a place where I was like, listen, life, nothing else better happen, because I can't handle it. And life doesn't really negotiate like that. So I needed to do something different. And then that was on me. So when I was at that point of, like, kind of my life was getting so small, that I wanted to be just available for a fun and laughing and I wanted to experience you know, just plain old life as being either Okay, or above, okay, that's what I was shooting for personally.
What I tend to shoot for now is like a sense of peace and knowing and capacity, and we're not trying to talk anybody out of their feelings that they're having. But we're also going to acknowledge that this is not the destination. It doesn't have to be.
Sade
Love it. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for sharing your story and your work with the listeners really appreciate it.
Wendy
So, so great. I'm so pleased and grateful that you asked, thank you shut down. You're welcome.
Sade
All right, listeners, this has been such a good one. I just feel so much like, joy from this conversation. Just it's really validated. There's so many parts of my own experience. So this is I want to encourage you to follow Wendy, her social media handles on her podcast link will be in the show notes. We all experience grief. So her work and her message, I think will be applicable to all of us. We want to thank you for your time and attention. And we will see you next time. Thanks, Wendy.
Wendy
Listen, it's already hard enough. It's plenty hard enough. And support is available in my goinginside.me program. That is actually the web address as well. If you're finding that you would prefer to be more responsive and less reactive. This is the place for you. This may seem obvious, but I'll share it anyway. We humans take most of our actions based on feelings.
So this includes reactivity. This includes distraction, this includes numbing out, it includes all of it, mostly we just don't know how to do it. So goinginside.me is where we practice and normalize what's actually happening in your life and world. It's a group coaching program as well as a course of modules. This is available. I'd love for you to join me. Go to goinginside.me and check it out. You are 100% invited and you deserve to be supported. Now.
