Episode 68: Girl Hidden, Meeting Author Jesse René Gibbs
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Jesse shares her journey of healing from childhood trauma.
Today Wendy Sloneker, Grief Specialist & Coach, welcomes a very special guest, Jesse René Gibbs, author of the book Girl Hidden. Jesse shares the traumatic story of her childhood, what it was like discovering the truth about what happened to her, and her journey of healing by finding support and writing her book. Jesse René Gibbs also speaks on her experience with therapy. She acknowledges that, for her, finding a good therapist meant finding someone that helped her connect her past experiences to her body and her feelings. And therapy didn’t make her “better”, but it has given her the tools she needs to walk through life. Healing is different for everybody And a network of support has been important for Jesse René Gibbs too; healing is different for everybody, but for her having certain people by her side (on her side) has been life-changing. To learn more about Jesse René Gibbs and get a copy of her book, visit her website: girlhidden.com. |
Wendy sits down with Author Jesse Rene Gibbs who shares her journey of healing from childhood trauma.
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You are Invited:
Or if you are looking for a way to start getting your own network of support, working with Wendy could be a good start. Visit www.wendysloneker.com to learn more.
And if you are interested in Wendy’s group coaching program, Going Inside, find more information at goinginside.me.
Or if you are looking for a way to start getting your own network of support, working with Wendy could be a good start. Visit www.wendysloneker.com to learn more.
And if you are interested in Wendy’s group coaching program, Going Inside, find more information at goinginside.me.
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Full Episode Transcript
Wendy Sloneker
You are listening to the Heart Healing from Loss podcast with Wendy Soneker. You have arrived at episode 68. Hello, welcome back. I am so glad you are here. Here in this moment right here right now. I have an extremely special guest for you today. And her name is Jesse René Gibbs. She's an author of a book called Girl Hidden. Now, before I bring her on, and welcome her welcome my face off of to her.
I would like to put out a word of care. The topic of Jesse René's life and the things that go on in her life can be activating, heightening, triggering these things. I want to offer you a word of care and caution that you proceed with care and caution you are going to be the 100% right person to know whether or not you need to be listening to this episode to day. Clean. Okay, up to you. And I would like to welcome Jesse René. Good. Hi. Hello.
Jesse Gibbs
Um, thank you so much for having me on the show. This is gonna be so much fun.
Wendy
Oh my gosh, yeah, we still get to have fun, even though we talked about some serious shit, right? Yep. Please? Yes. So, Jesse, you wrote a book about your story, like a big part of your story to date, because you still got more story to go. But like, tell me about, like a little bit about your story, and why a book.
Jesse
So it started two ways. A lot of times when you tell someone that you've been kidnapped, twice, they kind of give you this look, you know, this kind of like startled, what, and then you have to tell the story. And then once you've told the story, a lot of a lot, a lot, a lot of people go, gosh, that sounds like you should write a book like, Okay.
And then I started writing a story. And the reason that I ended up writing it to begin with was because it became really healing for me to be able to put some of those events into chronological order, and sort of straighten out in my mind what really happened, my mother is a narcissist. And so she makes up her own version of events. And so to come to the realization that a lot of the things that I was told, growing up weren't true. And go back and research and interview the people who are involved and go through court documents and FBI files and, and I have like boxes and boxes and boxes that I went through, and come up with, like, what really happened.
And then, at some point, during the journey of writing this book, which took about 25 years, but at some point, I started realizing that the point of this book was less about healing me and more about healing other people, because I wanted it to become kind of a survivor's guide that there's the trauma happens and and horrible things happen and abuse happens. And you can survive it and not just survive it, but you can thrive.
Wendy
Right? Post Traumatic Growth is one of the the topics are the words that come to mind right now that I've heard. And like without minimizing this is frickin tragedy, that it's like these events happen, these events transpired as you were a child growing up and sort of making your way and then to be denied or dismissed that your experience was indeed, yours.
Jesse
Exactly. And it really messes with your head when, when your story is minimized to that way. And mama did a really good job of rewriting my story for me for a lot of years.
Wendy
Ooh, ooh, totally. So I would like to just acknowledge and commend that this has been tremendous work, not just writing the book, but, life and living is tremendous work and arriving at at what does healing mean or look like so I think if we could just open up a little bit more of your story around being kidnapped twice. That's already kind of high on the what? Registration. So if you wouldn't mind just sharing a little bit and I know there's so much of it. That's in your book, but I think more for context and understanding it might be useful for my listeners to hear a little bit more about your story, the chronological events.
Jesse
So I was born in In Rota, Spain to a woman who was going to give me up for adoption. And then she was she was 19, I was her seventh pregnancy. So she had had six abortions at that point, and I was going to be her seventh. But then she found out that if she had a baby, she could get out of the military. So she was going to be up for adoption. Then she found out that if she gave the baby up for adoption, she couldn't get out of the military, they would just give her like a paid leave for a small amount of time, and then back into the military should go to fill it fulfill her three year service.
So she decided three weeks where I was born, to keep me. And then she spent the next three months trying to kill me. So she saw me she left me alone in the in the, in the apartment while she went out partying, like all sorts of things. And I know this not not because I have these memories of it. But I know this because I have like, letters from the doctor telling her that if you don't, if your daughter doesn't gain weight in the next month, we're taking her away from you letters from a mother saying how literally saying how her daughter is dirty word and is very demanding and shouldn't be able to demand things for me like food
As an infant, as an infant.
Wendy
Okay. So when you have these letters, I'm going to just break right there for a second because discovering these letters is its own work and trauma, I imagine. So let me check like, Jesse, when you discover these documents, or this information, like, how old were you like when you discovered that?
Jesse
Grandma sent those to me, because she collected everything she sent me? Probably 45 boxes of files over the years, and I got that particular box of letters. When I was in my mid 20s. I was living in Michigan. And I went through every page and just sobbed like, just, I knew that I wasn't wanted, I knew that I was there was there was something there and then to have it on paper that realization in, in my mother's own words of how much she hated me even when I was a baby. Like, it's it's very traumatizing. And, you know, thank God for good therapy, because wow. Having to walk through that, and then that feeling of abandonment all over again.
Wendy
Rejection, abandonment? 100%. Yeah. Did you have support around you at the time that you found these things? It sounds like grandma was trying to help you by offering this information to you. Sometimes that's not always super helpful. So I'm wondering, like, what kind of support did you have around you, I love that you had your own, like wisdom for allowing sobbing.
Jesse
So I was married my ex husband at the time, and he was fairly useless. But I did have my best friend. And even though she lived 1000 miles away from me, we were on the phone a lot going through these letters together, and I would read them to her. And she would basically let it be like, is this normal? Do moms normally feel this way about their kids? And have her go on? I have a baby and no, like postpartum depression aside? No, that's not a thing. Normal people don't talk like this, Jesse.
And to just have her to to walk me through that and let me cry. And let me be sad. She was young, we were both very young, early 20s. And she had like a new two year old and a new baby and was living her own life. And she would take all this time out of her her own space to listen to me. And let me be crazy on the phone for a little while. But yeah, she was she was pretty much it. Like I said, my ex husband was pretty useless was thought I was overreacting and quotes. You're so dramatic, that kind of thing.
Wendy
Yeah, without having like, a sense about normalize like, of course, he wouldn't have any clue as to what your experience had been. Nobody can have anybody else's understanding like of the lived experience. But oh number one, yeah. How Jesse?
Jesse
Yeah, there's there's a reason he's the ex husband. Right?
Wendy
That That totally transpired. Yeah. So sorry to interrupt, but like let's go back to where we left off around. You receiving this information like as an infant toddler, then what happened?
Jesse
So then my mother moved to Vashon island out here in Washington State and moved in with her mom and dad. And Grandma became my full time caretaker. Well, Mama went off and partied. And then when grandma would be like, Okay, I need you to take care of your daughter. This is your daughter. You need to be taking care of your child. Mama would take Be to the parties leave me on the floor somewhere with whoever. And so grandma was like to keep my granddaughter safe. I'm just going to take on full time care.
So then, long story mama got married, came back pregnant, decided that her her marriage was over, came back pregnant decided to have an abortion, which she delivered the baby in front of me. I was too big, long story that's in the that's in the book. The family got together and said, Okay, who's going to take Jesse like Donna's? I'm sorry. Dolores is no longer a safe person. Somebody needs to take Jesse. So my auntie Mabel, who is like my heart. She's just absolutely wonderful was like, I can't have kids right now. I'd love to have a baby. So I moved in with her. They started the adoption process. Six months into the adoption process. Her husband said if we get divorced, I don't want to pay child support send her back. So they had another…
Wendy
You were freakin’ two, wow.
Jesse
So grandma took custody of me, filled out all the paperwork. She was my legal guardian, her grandpa. And for the next three years, grandma had me in like special classes. It was very smart little girl, I had an IQ of like, 145 when I was four years old. So I was on all these special classes, she would like feed the books, just very attentive, very, like caring. And then in grandpa was kind of along for the ride.
He was loved me genuinely loved me, but had like no desire to be raising a highly traumatized, highly needy, very smart person, when he had just retired and he was looking forward to being retired. And so at this during this time, mama had moved to North Carolina, met her husband, my abuser, and gotten married and started having babies.
So she had two kids at this time, they had a house together. She was going to church. She thought that she had arrived. And so she contacted her mom and said, I want my daughter back. And grandma went no, you're crazy. This isn't a safe, you're not a safe person for my granddaughter. And so she contacted her dad and said, Papa, Daddy, please can I have my daughter back? And grandpa said? Sure.
Wendy
Oh, no.
Jesse
Oh, yeah, one of the biggest fights they ever had. Oh, so grandma, sent me down to North Carolina, took me to North Carolina and dropped me off with his family. But I she
Wendy
She drove you or she brought you we physically
Jesse
We flew. And I met them at the airport for the first time. And I was five for your conscious memory. For my conscious memory. Yeah, yeah, there, there was at one point, from what I understand, they actually came out and visited briefly. And the only reason I know that is because there were there were photos. There were there's one particular photo of my stepfather, Robert Papa, meeting me for the first time and smelling my hair.
Which is a little like you look at the picture, you're like, ew, ew, ew. Oh, so I went down to live there. And the plan was that I was going to be there for three months. See how everything works. See if everything was fine. Make sure that you know Jesse's settling in well, and then we'll take it for another three months and see how that works.
Mama turned off the phone. And remember, we didn't have Internet back then we didn't have access to any of those things. She changed her address. Grandma had no way to contact me. Ya know, they stayed in the same house but they changed their address so letters like grandma would send would get sent back. Oh, no. She had no way of contact and this went on for a year and a half. Well during this time is when my stepfather took the opportunity to make himself way more comfortable with me than he should have. Like with Mama yeah full awareness. She would basically bring me bring him into my bedroom and drop him off.
Wendy
What?
Jesse
Yeah, I was five Yeah, they would say good night to all the boys in the other room because the the boys slept in the other room bunk beds, and then they would come into my room and we would say prayers together and they would sing a song and then mama would be like okay good night and leave Papa with me and go back to bed.
And so this one on in my in my working memory because my brother Yeah, Ivan when you don't have the experience of timelines like you don't understand timeline It's no way. It wasn't bad. It was like for a few weeks. It was it was for a year and a half. Almost everything. Yeah.
And so finally grandma sent a letter and said, I'm coming to your house. I'm flying to North Carolina and I'm hunting you down. I have legal rights to Jesse, you do not have legal rights to her. I am coming down there. If you are not at this property at this time, I'm calling the cops.
Wendy
Well, how would that letter have gotten to her? To your biological mom?
Jesse
I don't I don't know how the letter got to her. She was she was the letters that she was getting. She was ripping up and throwing away. So this one apparently got through. So my grandmother showed up at the house. Yeah. And my grandma's a teeny tiny little personally, my mom is five foot 10. My stepdad is six, four. He was Marine Corps staff sergeant, and my grandmother is five foot nothing teeny, tiny little redhead.
And so she shows up often in her and is like I'm here to stay. I'm here to stay for five days, and you guys will get your shit together. And I'm taking my granddaughter if things aren't safe. And so she tried to take me out to lunch and Mama said, no, no, no, no, we'll all go as a family. Jesse doesn't need to be alone with you. And I had been taught I had been trained that conditioned I was not allowed to be alone with grandma. Oh, Grandma was not a safe person.
Wendy
Oh, man.
Jesse
So finally grandma was like, um, I have legal rights to Jesse. I'm taking her out to lunch by myself. You guys can fuck off. So she took me out to lunch. We sat in the car. Nate, do you remember this? She's like, so do you want to tell me what's going on? Everything's fine.
Wendy
Reload. Fine. Yeah.
Jesse
And so I told her what was going on papa. And we were having snuggling time. And I'm not comfortable with it. And I don't know what that looks like. And my grandmother was hot. Like, you could see it in her eyes just like the fear and the anger. And she kept her cool. She totally kept her cool. But you know, like I said, I was smart, little cookie. Right? And so we made a plan. She had been paying for a private Christian school for me to go to because mama didn't want to send me to school. No, no, no, she's too young. She doesn't need to be educated. You know, girls only need to know enough math to make a batch pancakes. It's not important. So, grandma, and I made a plan. She was going to take me to the private Christian school. And to to drop me off in quotes. And she was going to talk to the principal. And then we were going to fly home to Washington State. Okay. Yeah. And so we said goodbye to mama that morning. We said goodbye to my little brothers that morning. I cried and cried and cried could not keep my stuff together.
Wendy
I thought, Well, you were saying goodbye. Or was it?
Jesse
Yeah, grandma was like, Oh, she's gonna blow it. She's gonna blow it right here.
Wendy
You it's kind of a town. Yeah.
Jesse
Yeah. Mom was like, what's wrong? I'm like, I'm just sad that grandma's leaving? And she's like, well, you need to get your shit together. Keep it together, Jesse. I'm like, okay, I can do this. And so I cried the whole way to the to the school, we met with the principal grandma was, do not call them do not tell them. Like I'm paying for the school. I have legal custody of Jesse. Here's all the paperwork that says that I have legal custody of her. And of course, the school was like, Oh, thank God, thank God, you're taking this poor child away from these people. And we flew to Washington State.
Wendy
Wow. So like, I would like to just put a pin in this like immediately right here because I'm sure there's like, loads and loads going on. Suffice it to say audience, there's plenty of other things that transpire in just even a story. Go get the book. And I would like to move toward, wow, the healing journey because like I just feel that would be important here. Before we actually do that. I know I just interrupted you. But I also would like to like, hey, like what else needs to be shared before we move toward the healing? More stories about the healing journey?
Jesse
So I lived with my grandmother for about nine months. And she had me in therapy. I was back in public school. I was back in my special classes. You were five and the aunties around me. I was at this point I was almost Seven, okay. And I was living at in Kent here in Washington at a seniors living facility. And it was a trailer park. And so there were little trailers all the way down the line. And we were the first trailer on the block. And we had a big pink, Japanese cherry blossom tree in our yard. And every day, grandma and grandpa would take a break, step away from having a crazy emotionally traumatized little person in their life. And they would walk down the street, just down the block to where the post office was. And they would get their mail and then they would come back, and they could see the trailer or like the whole walk, they could see the trailer from where they were. But this was their like, time to like, hold hands, take a breather, have a breath.
Well, unbeknownst to them, my mother had met another woman, Mary Sue, and told her that, you know, her daughter had been kidnapped by her mother, that she was being abused that she was in a horrible situation where you come with me to rescue my baby. And so they flew out to Washington rented a car and stalked me for three days. They followed my bus to school, they knew that grandma and grandpa took a walk every day and they waited. So grandma and grandpa went to take a walk. I was listening to Bing Crosby, on my headphones. And I was in my dress up clothes barefoot, even though it was December, it was warm inside and was knock on the door.
I was all alone. And so I just went over and answered the door. And here's a stranger, somebody I've never met before. Mary Sue. And she goes, come with me your mommy's in the car. And I was like, Oh, I know this one. I've been taught this one in school stranger danger. And so I said, No, I'm sorry. I don't go with strangers. And she just blinked. She looked at me and she goes, You're a very good girl. And I shut the door and I went, I should probably call one of the Auntie's, like the Auntie's need to know that this happened. This is something's going on. So I walked over the phone, and by the time I got phone, my five foot 10, towering woman, of a mother stomped through the door, like, busted the door down, stomped through the door, grabbed me by the arm kicking and screaming, dragged me down the steps.
I had splinters in my arms from trying to hold on to the side of the steps, dragged me across the gravel parking lot, threw me into the car, and we flew out of there, like a bat out of hell. We drove for three hours crossed into Oregon. And at that point, mama had crossed state lines, which means the FBI had gotten involved. By the time my grandparents and one of the neighbors saw called 911. By the time my grandparents got back from the post office, because it happens that quick. There were six police cars front of their building. And you were so we, and I was gone.
So after we crossed into Oregon, we pulled into a payphone remember those old pay phones. And Mama was like, and I'm just sobbing, just sobbing and sobbing and sobbing. And she had brought her nine month old son, my little brother with her. There was a baby in the
Wendy
Infant and Mary Sue and her mom and yourself
Jesse
Yes and my mother is screaming at me screaming at me. You are upsetting your little brother. You're upsetting your little brother get your shit together. And I'm just like, bawling. Oh, my gosh. And so so of course, once again, putting the onus on me. Why is this? Not my Oh,
Wendy
I see. Yeah, like your mom put the onus on you. My mom put the onus on me.
Jesse
It's your responsibility, your setting and your thoughts? Yeah, it's your it's a blame thing. So we pulled into the we pulled into the payphone. And she said, Okay, if you can stop crying, I'll let you talk to your grandmother. And so I sucked it up. Like all of my energy to stop. Okay, okay. Okay. So barefoot December, their foot in Oregon fancy club and I walked to the airport in fancy clothes. And I walked to the payphone.
And Mama called grandma. And I could hear on the other end of the phone, my grandmother screaming you bring her back this instance. And she's like, do you want to talk to her so you know, she's okay. And she put the phone down to me and I just burst into tears and screamed, Grandma, grandma, grandma. And Mama yanked the phone away, grabbed me by the shirt threw me onto the ground outside of the pay payphone. Mary Sue picked me up, put me back in the car, and I immediately fell asleep. Like immediately our engine shut down.
Wendy
Yeah. Understandable. Oh my gosh.
Jesse
Yeah. So the next day we flew home to North Carolina. Mary Sue lived in Michigan. And so we flew together to the Atlanta airport. Mama went with the baby because she was a nursing mother. And she wore a wig and sunglasses. And then Mary Sue, who there was no record of them being friends. I went dressed as her son, Jeremy.
So they tucked my hair up under a hat dressed me as boy, my ticket said Jeremy, and we flew to Atlanta. And that's where the FBI lost us in the airport. Oh my gosh. So we went, Mama collected me at that point in Atlanta, and Mary Sue flew home to Michigan. And then we went back to North Carolina and I was in hiding for two years. At that point, like I was dropped out the back window to neighbors I hid in a closet while the police searched the house. Like for years, this went on. And at some point between seven and eight, I completely lost my memory. Understandable. Except I remembered that Robert had abused me was not a safe person. And he never touched me again.
Wendy
I was going to ask Is he still in the picture?
Jesse
Ah, yes, he was in the picture all the way up until he passed away last year. Not in my life. Like I cut him completely out of my life. But he was still in my siblings lives until he passed away last year.
Wendy
Oh, man.
Jesse
And I remember the kidnapping. So I knew mama wasn't safe. But I didn't remember my grandma and grandpa. I didn't remember my Auntie's. I didn't remember like, I would get boxes from them. And Mama would tell me her version of like, oh, I bought these things for you. Well, how come there's a phone number written in the inside pages of this book? To call Auntie Mabel? Who's Auntie Mabel? Oh, that's my sister. She probably meant it for me. Oh, yeah. And I still have some of those books.
Wendy
Oh, man. So like, 100% reasonable to be losing your memory. But also like, I I'm just kind of at a loss of not knowing what to say around like, what about your identity like, that had to have, been just utterly not available as well, like you're starting over again and again and again, as a child, but then like to go and recover? When did your memories start to come back? Or how do you want to talk about that
Jesse
I was in high school. I was in high school. I started getting flashbacks. Uh huh. Like, severe flashbacks, like full blown, can't see things, seeing different things, complete flashbacks. And up until I started going to therapy in my 30s, I would still get flashbacks. And there are still times where like, I'll have like a memory that doesn't quite fit. And I'll have to reattach it somewhere and figure out like, oh, you know, a certain smell. And I'll be like, Okay, why does that remind me of grandma that doesn't say, and have to reattach it somewhere.
But yeah, I've lost a good chunk of my memory and then coming back to it as and then of course, when I left home, when I finally got away from the tailors. When I was 19, I immediately moved into an inner city commune in Chicago, so there was no real consistent place for healing for me until well into my 30s Oh, wow. And then I started going to therapy and like, I cannot recommend good therapy highly enough, right? That is so incredibly healing and helpful to have somebody there to pick up the pieces with you. Right? So you're not doing it alone.
Wendy
It's 100%. What how, how would you describe good therapy? Because I think for some people who were, you know, maybe considering therapy or considering some sort of support and what I mean, and having the background and the experience that you've had? How, how did you identify like good therapy for you?
Jesse
Oh, that's a great question. I needed somebody who would understand me and understand my story. So one of the things that I I struggle with, and I struggled with, with my therapist for three years, was trying to understand my story without connecting it to my heart, because I'm really on a smart cookie. And so I figured if I could just solve the brain, I'll just solve it in my head brain. Like maybe if I maybe if I organize it just so maybe if I can understand like, what was my mother thinking? And maybe that will help me to heal. And it took me three years before my therapist literally stopped me mid story and went, but how does this make you feel?
Wendy
100%
Jesse
Where are you connecting this in your body? And I was like, I'm not I don't want To me, that's a big scary place to go.
Wendy
It's all about my neck.
Jesse
So, yeah, it's all about, like, let's keep it there, it's safe up here, like I can keep it, you know, it's not connecting to my body at all. And I don't have to deal with the feelings that come along with that, my gosh, and so she would, she would literally do like, yoga with me, like, we would be like, I would be in the middle of starting a panic attack.
And she'd go, we're going to continue talking about this, but I want you to lay on the floor. We're going to put your feet up, we're going to stretch our arms, we're going to breathe in and out and and so she did a lot of like, physically keeping me what color are your socks? Jesse, Jesse, what color are your sock in the body, they soft, like keeping me in my body as I walked through some of these things. Because the only connection that I had to my body was panic.
Wendy
Oh my gosh, and she was like making it a very active and present and safe way to feel something. Yes, something
Jesse
And keeping me from disassociating like keeping me from completely like going off off into the dark place
Wendy
Right or just into like, what the story of what happened was, like, the process of sort of becoming friends with your body when there were so much that was, you know, of your body that was attacked and violated and, dismissed and ghastly, making friends with something deep and safe inside of you is a big deal.
Jesse
It really really is I can't I like there's really, it's hard to even explain it. And until you're actually in that and you start to feel like you're living in your body for the first time. Like I'm comfortable in my, in my own skin for the first time, like I can have, I can tell my story. And I can tell the story and have it connect up here in my head, but also down here. Or like where am I feeling the story at this particular moment is this is are my shoulders tight, or my legs or my toes like clenched up, like what's going on in my body and being able to connect that in a safe way and realize that I'm a safe person.
Wendy
And in a safe place. There's a lot of wisdom in the body just in terms of like mammal adrenaline, like safety is, is a prime element that we watch for and look for. And when we've gone through some, like really big life stuff, you have and others have and like we all have our own to acknowledge and move through. It's a big deal to sort of get settled and learn how to regulate ourselves based on just what the body needs, like whether it's shaking or moving or it gets hot, like my spine often will get really hot when I'm getting activated or heightened. Do you have certain cells in your body that are like okay, what?
Jesse
I get spiders to crawl off the back of my shoulder blades? Yep, like every time like I can feel it, it's usually on the side. And it will like out when when I get heightened. Like it feels like there's a spider crawling up my back like itches. And, and it's but it's inside of me. And it does. It's interesting. I had it happened recently. I was switching some medications. And so my anxiety level had gone up by about 25% and I had that spider crawl up the back of my shoulder and I went well I haven't felt that in a minute. Wow. Oh, so you know it the farther into the into my my healing process that I go, the less often I feel the spiders and the more comfortable I am in my own body.
I will say my mother believed in purity culture, the purity culture was strong in our family and a lot of religious trauma as well. And so not only was shown that my body was not mine, but I was told that my body was not mine. Like I was specific. You were trained by my mother. Yes, your body doesn't belong to you. You are a servant to this family. You will cook and clean and care for the children and like all of those things for me. And then for your father, you will practice literally said the words you will practice what it looks like to have a husband on your stepfather. You will clean up after him. You will cook for him you will make his lunches. You will pray for him every day. You will call him to remind him that he is loved. You will be there to greet him when he gets home. You will hold his hand when you are in public. You will let him hug you. However he is comfortable. All the He never touched me again.
After I credibly accused him of assaulting me. He never touched me again. He was scared. Oh my God, but He treated me like his girlfriend. So I didn't like and honestly, I didn't know what it looks like because I never dated when I was growing up. We weren't I wasn't allowed to you won't
Wendy
You might have been like ejected from your body. Like all all of this just creates more and more shutdown, more and more distrust between like the mind that is like, ready to take care of you and the one that's traumatized that seeking any kind of survival. Like because like, honestly, this is about survival. In all of this.
Jesse
It goes all the way down to where the only thing you're thinking about is surviving the next day 100% or minute, there's yeah, there's no growth. Yes, exactly. There's no growth, there's no opportunity for self reflection. There's no place for healing. It's all about survival. So when I left home when I was 19, and I moved to the inner city commune and I met my ex husband, and that's where I got married. I actually flew out to art took a train rather took a train from Chicago, to Seattle, to meet my Auntie's, and my grandma and grandpa for the first time, since I had lost my memory.
And it was so healing tears all around. My grandfather's grumpy old saw it but he was very emotional. He like, pointedly like we were sitting there. And we were all talking and chatting, because we're very chatty family. And I look over and my grandfather, the Navy man is just sitting there staring at me. And I was like, Okay, what's up, grandpa? Nice to meet you. But this is a little weird. What's happening? And he goes, Well, first of all, I need to apologize to you for letting you go to North Carolina. I shouldn't have done that. I messed up.
Wendy
What did that do for you? Like? Yeah, talk about why did you register that in your body? Like, what what kind of moment was that?
Jesse
I was just, I was so stunned. I was just so stunned. And he goes, and the other thing is, I'm realizing that as much as I wanted to meet you again, and as excited as I am to meet you. See you as a 21 year old is really cool. But there's a little seven year old girl that is completely gone. And I'm just over here with my heartbroken. Because she doesn't exist anymore. And I just need to take space for that. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah,
Wendy
That is such like a totally, like, emotionally mature thing.
Jesse
Right, my grumpy old sort of a grandfather. And he was like, in his space at that point. Like I was really, I was, it was beyond my ability to be impressed. Looking back. Very impressed.
Wendy
Oh, my gosh, yeah. And in the moment, more stunned, more, like, I completely stopped. Wow. I mean, it's totally chatty. Yes, it is to like, sometimes that can be a smoothing agent is the chatty, but to have like that real element where he owns his experience. Yeah, and you're there for it to witness it was that healing at all, as you look back on it.
Jesse
So healing, so in every time I every time I circle back to it and have that conversation, there's just a connecting point with my grandfather all over again, where it's like, you saw me in a way that I hadn't been seen before. And you, you, you, that conversation helps me because of course, of course, I went through like a period of time as I was going through my healing where I was mad at him like yeah, why why the hell yeah. Would you knowing that my mother was the crazy person that she was knowing that she was not a safe person? Why would you send a five year old into that situation? Right. Right.
And being angry now I needed to feel those feelings and walk through them. Yeah. But the fact that he like, preemptively apologize. And, and of course, there's a lot of toxic positivity that has happened over the years of like, well, you know, this wasn't what we wanted, but this was what God wanted. Oh. Well, you know, God put you down there for a reason you were there to protect your siblings. Why did I need to protect my siblings?
Wendy
Where were you? Yeah, when? When was I the child
Jesse
There's there's quite a bit of toxic positivity over the years through my extended family that has kind of popped in that I've just had to go Hmm
Wendy
Oh, stepping back here. I'm gonna go hide here. Let's not let's have a we don't and No. and No. Yeah. Oh, Jesse wow, man. So I have one specific question that I would love to hear about just like as the final question as we wrap up, I know there's more in your story. I know there's more in your healing. But I would love it if you would talk a little bit about the difference between healing pain and continued pain, like I imagined that like you going through years and decades of therapy and personal development and sort of boundary work honestly. Tell me about healing pain, and how that could be different from just regular emotional, heartbreak pain, if you if that feels like that.
Jesse
No, absolutely. So I feel like the best way that I can describe healing, for me at least is you're standing on a beach. And when you're standing on a beach in the sand, and you get your feet in the sand, and the waves are coming in, and sometimes it's just lapping against your feet, and it's fine. And sometimes it's a little bit deeper, sometimes you can feel the sand being pulled out from underneath your feet. Sometimes you get a sneaker wave that comes in and knocks you completely down. And sometimes the tide goes out. Sometimes the tide comes back in the whole time, you're still standing in that space on the beach, and you have to experience all of those things to heal.
And there's no final definition of like, I was therapy for like, four years before I realized that I wasn't going to get a gold sticker at the end of that said that I was better. All I was getting was tools to help me live with and walk through the experiences that I had had. But there is no like magic, like, you get a gold sticker. You're never going to have another bad day, you're never going to have a flashback again. It's it's a consistent thing. But the farther one time definitely makes a difference. And to therapy definitely makes a difference. And learning to live in your body makes a difference. Tremendous that you're always going to be standing on that beach. I feel like there's a lot of things in in my story where I had to literally go back like I had to go back to
Wendy
Like geographically back. It was the the sounds cut out. I can no longer hear you right now. That's weird. Yeah. Oh, here you are saying,
Jesse
So yes, geographically, I went back to North Carolina with my best friend and bless her heart good. And she went with me. And we went and stood outside these houses, and even walk through one of the houses just to like, be in the space and cry and mourn. And because there's there's the different levels like, Okay, you were sexually assaulted. I need to mourn the fact that I wasn't protected. I need to mourn the fact that I was abused and even more in the fact that I didn't have a stepfather that loved me. I need to mourn the fact that my mother didn't protect me. There's all those things that you have to go through grief for, and then healing for. And there's all those different levels.
Like, for example, I didn't. Up until eight years ago, I still defended my stepfather whenever I would talk about the abuse. You don't understand. Papa was abused when he was a kid. You don't understand he was in an abusive relationship with a woman who'd hated him. That, that then my therapist is sitting there calling her eyes out look going, okay. And my husband was the one to go. But you were five. Yeah. Imagine your grandson. I would I would do horrible things to somebody, you've touched my grandson. He's like, right. And would your grandson be responsible for any of those things? Right.
Wendy
Taking your own side, yeah, we aren't taught this. Oh, my gosh, just a huge, friggin huge,
Jesse
Huge healing moment. And of course, my best friend is Alaska at the time. So I'm calling her on this, like crappy cell phone and Alaska. And she's breaking up and I'm like, No, you don't understand. This is the biggest thing that's ever happened to me in the
Wendy
In the longest time.
Jesse
So I feel like at the end of the day healing is. It's different for everybody. And it's it's important to continue plugging away. One of my favorite authors, Dean Koontz talks about and one of his books. He talks about life. And life is not a race to the end sometimes. Sometimes it's just slogging through. Sometimes it's just sitting in it. And that's life. And so if like I would, I would hope to your listeners. If you're in that point where you're looking around and you're just slogging through your knee deep in the sand. The waves are coming in at you that you keep standing up as much as you can and if you need to sit in it sit in it. But remember that the waves are gonna go back out. Right? You're gonna have that breathing room again, right? This isn't this, isn't it?
Wendy
Not the destination. Well, and support can be available. Did you find that having somebody standing next to you on that beach or imagining support next to you on that beach was part of healing? Or did that make it easy or at all?
Jesse
Life altering? My best friend is my rock. She is absolutely my rock. And I can't tell you how many times she has grabbed me by one arm and pulled me up above the waves. Just be like, Okay, you might need to sit in this, but you still have to breathe. Hang on. Hang on, you still have to breathe. Yeah, like, yeah, it's important to have a support network. And it's important to have good people around you. And also if you if you can get into therapy, or you can get into counseling, I highly recommend that because it's so nice to have a safe person there with you to just go okay, I've walked this path before. I've been on this beach. I've been on this beach
Wendy
Or I'm just here it looks while you're on your beach. Like, yeah, I like I'm not going anywhere. We're in. We're on your beach right now. Huge. Oh, Jesse René Gibbs, thank you very much for your time and your care and for your own healing, because that's the RAD after life experience and many lives have experience that you've been through and gone through. Pick up Girl Hidden at isn't an audio book as well. Is it a paperback?
Jesse
audio book as well? Yeah. So it's available in paperback ebook and audiobook. You can find out more at girlhidden.com.
Wendy
Great. Jesse. Thank you again. Thanks, everybody, and we'll talk to you next week.
Hey, thanks for listening. And if you are interested in doing a little deeper work in my group coaching program, go to goinginside.me See what I did there, goinginside.me. That's an annual program. We can work together in a group setting. And you'll see all the details right there. love to have you join. Thank you for listening, and I'll talk to you next week.
You are listening to the Heart Healing from Loss podcast with Wendy Soneker. You have arrived at episode 68. Hello, welcome back. I am so glad you are here. Here in this moment right here right now. I have an extremely special guest for you today. And her name is Jesse René Gibbs. She's an author of a book called Girl Hidden. Now, before I bring her on, and welcome her welcome my face off of to her.
I would like to put out a word of care. The topic of Jesse René's life and the things that go on in her life can be activating, heightening, triggering these things. I want to offer you a word of care and caution that you proceed with care and caution you are going to be the 100% right person to know whether or not you need to be listening to this episode to day. Clean. Okay, up to you. And I would like to welcome Jesse René. Good. Hi. Hello.
Jesse Gibbs
Um, thank you so much for having me on the show. This is gonna be so much fun.
Wendy
Oh my gosh, yeah, we still get to have fun, even though we talked about some serious shit, right? Yep. Please? Yes. So, Jesse, you wrote a book about your story, like a big part of your story to date, because you still got more story to go. But like, tell me about, like a little bit about your story, and why a book.
Jesse
So it started two ways. A lot of times when you tell someone that you've been kidnapped, twice, they kind of give you this look, you know, this kind of like startled, what, and then you have to tell the story. And then once you've told the story, a lot of a lot, a lot, a lot of people go, gosh, that sounds like you should write a book like, Okay.
And then I started writing a story. And the reason that I ended up writing it to begin with was because it became really healing for me to be able to put some of those events into chronological order, and sort of straighten out in my mind what really happened, my mother is a narcissist. And so she makes up her own version of events. And so to come to the realization that a lot of the things that I was told, growing up weren't true. And go back and research and interview the people who are involved and go through court documents and FBI files and, and I have like boxes and boxes and boxes that I went through, and come up with, like, what really happened.
And then, at some point, during the journey of writing this book, which took about 25 years, but at some point, I started realizing that the point of this book was less about healing me and more about healing other people, because I wanted it to become kind of a survivor's guide that there's the trauma happens and and horrible things happen and abuse happens. And you can survive it and not just survive it, but you can thrive.
Wendy
Right? Post Traumatic Growth is one of the the topics are the words that come to mind right now that I've heard. And like without minimizing this is frickin tragedy, that it's like these events happen, these events transpired as you were a child growing up and sort of making your way and then to be denied or dismissed that your experience was indeed, yours.
Jesse
Exactly. And it really messes with your head when, when your story is minimized to that way. And mama did a really good job of rewriting my story for me for a lot of years.
Wendy
Ooh, ooh, totally. So I would like to just acknowledge and commend that this has been tremendous work, not just writing the book, but, life and living is tremendous work and arriving at at what does healing mean or look like so I think if we could just open up a little bit more of your story around being kidnapped twice. That's already kind of high on the what? Registration. So if you wouldn't mind just sharing a little bit and I know there's so much of it. That's in your book, but I think more for context and understanding it might be useful for my listeners to hear a little bit more about your story, the chronological events.
Jesse
So I was born in In Rota, Spain to a woman who was going to give me up for adoption. And then she was she was 19, I was her seventh pregnancy. So she had had six abortions at that point, and I was going to be her seventh. But then she found out that if she had a baby, she could get out of the military. So she was going to be up for adoption. Then she found out that if she gave the baby up for adoption, she couldn't get out of the military, they would just give her like a paid leave for a small amount of time, and then back into the military should go to fill it fulfill her three year service.
So she decided three weeks where I was born, to keep me. And then she spent the next three months trying to kill me. So she saw me she left me alone in the in the, in the apartment while she went out partying, like all sorts of things. And I know this not not because I have these memories of it. But I know this because I have like, letters from the doctor telling her that if you don't, if your daughter doesn't gain weight in the next month, we're taking her away from you letters from a mother saying how literally saying how her daughter is dirty word and is very demanding and shouldn't be able to demand things for me like food
As an infant, as an infant.
Wendy
Okay. So when you have these letters, I'm going to just break right there for a second because discovering these letters is its own work and trauma, I imagine. So let me check like, Jesse, when you discover these documents, or this information, like, how old were you like when you discovered that?
Jesse
Grandma sent those to me, because she collected everything she sent me? Probably 45 boxes of files over the years, and I got that particular box of letters. When I was in my mid 20s. I was living in Michigan. And I went through every page and just sobbed like, just, I knew that I wasn't wanted, I knew that I was there was there was something there and then to have it on paper that realization in, in my mother's own words of how much she hated me even when I was a baby. Like, it's it's very traumatizing. And, you know, thank God for good therapy, because wow. Having to walk through that, and then that feeling of abandonment all over again.
Wendy
Rejection, abandonment? 100%. Yeah. Did you have support around you at the time that you found these things? It sounds like grandma was trying to help you by offering this information to you. Sometimes that's not always super helpful. So I'm wondering, like, what kind of support did you have around you, I love that you had your own, like wisdom for allowing sobbing.
Jesse
So I was married my ex husband at the time, and he was fairly useless. But I did have my best friend. And even though she lived 1000 miles away from me, we were on the phone a lot going through these letters together, and I would read them to her. And she would basically let it be like, is this normal? Do moms normally feel this way about their kids? And have her go on? I have a baby and no, like postpartum depression aside? No, that's not a thing. Normal people don't talk like this, Jesse.
And to just have her to to walk me through that and let me cry. And let me be sad. She was young, we were both very young, early 20s. And she had like a new two year old and a new baby and was living her own life. And she would take all this time out of her her own space to listen to me. And let me be crazy on the phone for a little while. But yeah, she was she was pretty much it. Like I said, my ex husband was pretty useless was thought I was overreacting and quotes. You're so dramatic, that kind of thing.
Wendy
Yeah, without having like, a sense about normalize like, of course, he wouldn't have any clue as to what your experience had been. Nobody can have anybody else's understanding like of the lived experience. But oh number one, yeah. How Jesse?
Jesse
Yeah, there's there's a reason he's the ex husband. Right?
Wendy
That That totally transpired. Yeah. So sorry to interrupt, but like let's go back to where we left off around. You receiving this information like as an infant toddler, then what happened?
Jesse
So then my mother moved to Vashon island out here in Washington State and moved in with her mom and dad. And Grandma became my full time caretaker. Well, Mama went off and partied. And then when grandma would be like, Okay, I need you to take care of your daughter. This is your daughter. You need to be taking care of your child. Mama would take Be to the parties leave me on the floor somewhere with whoever. And so grandma was like to keep my granddaughter safe. I'm just going to take on full time care.
So then, long story mama got married, came back pregnant, decided that her her marriage was over, came back pregnant decided to have an abortion, which she delivered the baby in front of me. I was too big, long story that's in the that's in the book. The family got together and said, Okay, who's going to take Jesse like Donna's? I'm sorry. Dolores is no longer a safe person. Somebody needs to take Jesse. So my auntie Mabel, who is like my heart. She's just absolutely wonderful was like, I can't have kids right now. I'd love to have a baby. So I moved in with her. They started the adoption process. Six months into the adoption process. Her husband said if we get divorced, I don't want to pay child support send her back. So they had another…
Wendy
You were freakin’ two, wow.
Jesse
So grandma took custody of me, filled out all the paperwork. She was my legal guardian, her grandpa. And for the next three years, grandma had me in like special classes. It was very smart little girl, I had an IQ of like, 145 when I was four years old. So I was on all these special classes, she would like feed the books, just very attentive, very, like caring. And then in grandpa was kind of along for the ride.
He was loved me genuinely loved me, but had like no desire to be raising a highly traumatized, highly needy, very smart person, when he had just retired and he was looking forward to being retired. And so at this during this time, mama had moved to North Carolina, met her husband, my abuser, and gotten married and started having babies.
So she had two kids at this time, they had a house together. She was going to church. She thought that she had arrived. And so she contacted her mom and said, I want my daughter back. And grandma went no, you're crazy. This isn't a safe, you're not a safe person for my granddaughter. And so she contacted her dad and said, Papa, Daddy, please can I have my daughter back? And grandpa said? Sure.
Wendy
Oh, no.
Jesse
Oh, yeah, one of the biggest fights they ever had. Oh, so grandma, sent me down to North Carolina, took me to North Carolina and dropped me off with his family. But I she
Wendy
She drove you or she brought you we physically
Jesse
We flew. And I met them at the airport for the first time. And I was five for your conscious memory. For my conscious memory. Yeah, yeah, there, there was at one point, from what I understand, they actually came out and visited briefly. And the only reason I know that is because there were there were photos. There were there's one particular photo of my stepfather, Robert Papa, meeting me for the first time and smelling my hair.
Which is a little like you look at the picture, you're like, ew, ew, ew. Oh, so I went down to live there. And the plan was that I was going to be there for three months. See how everything works. See if everything was fine. Make sure that you know Jesse's settling in well, and then we'll take it for another three months and see how that works.
Mama turned off the phone. And remember, we didn't have Internet back then we didn't have access to any of those things. She changed her address. Grandma had no way to contact me. Ya know, they stayed in the same house but they changed their address so letters like grandma would send would get sent back. Oh, no. She had no way of contact and this went on for a year and a half. Well during this time is when my stepfather took the opportunity to make himself way more comfortable with me than he should have. Like with Mama yeah full awareness. She would basically bring me bring him into my bedroom and drop him off.
Wendy
What?
Jesse
Yeah, I was five Yeah, they would say good night to all the boys in the other room because the the boys slept in the other room bunk beds, and then they would come into my room and we would say prayers together and they would sing a song and then mama would be like okay good night and leave Papa with me and go back to bed.
And so this one on in my in my working memory because my brother Yeah, Ivan when you don't have the experience of timelines like you don't understand timeline It's no way. It wasn't bad. It was like for a few weeks. It was it was for a year and a half. Almost everything. Yeah.
And so finally grandma sent a letter and said, I'm coming to your house. I'm flying to North Carolina and I'm hunting you down. I have legal rights to Jesse, you do not have legal rights to her. I am coming down there. If you are not at this property at this time, I'm calling the cops.
Wendy
Well, how would that letter have gotten to her? To your biological mom?
Jesse
I don't I don't know how the letter got to her. She was she was the letters that she was getting. She was ripping up and throwing away. So this one apparently got through. So my grandmother showed up at the house. Yeah. And my grandma's a teeny tiny little personally, my mom is five foot 10. My stepdad is six, four. He was Marine Corps staff sergeant, and my grandmother is five foot nothing teeny, tiny little redhead.
And so she shows up often in her and is like I'm here to stay. I'm here to stay for five days, and you guys will get your shit together. And I'm taking my granddaughter if things aren't safe. And so she tried to take me out to lunch and Mama said, no, no, no, no, we'll all go as a family. Jesse doesn't need to be alone with you. And I had been taught I had been trained that conditioned I was not allowed to be alone with grandma. Oh, Grandma was not a safe person.
Wendy
Oh, man.
Jesse
So finally grandma was like, um, I have legal rights to Jesse. I'm taking her out to lunch by myself. You guys can fuck off. So she took me out to lunch. We sat in the car. Nate, do you remember this? She's like, so do you want to tell me what's going on? Everything's fine.
Wendy
Reload. Fine. Yeah.
Jesse
And so I told her what was going on papa. And we were having snuggling time. And I'm not comfortable with it. And I don't know what that looks like. And my grandmother was hot. Like, you could see it in her eyes just like the fear and the anger. And she kept her cool. She totally kept her cool. But you know, like I said, I was smart, little cookie. Right? And so we made a plan. She had been paying for a private Christian school for me to go to because mama didn't want to send me to school. No, no, no, she's too young. She doesn't need to be educated. You know, girls only need to know enough math to make a batch pancakes. It's not important. So, grandma, and I made a plan. She was going to take me to the private Christian school. And to to drop me off in quotes. And she was going to talk to the principal. And then we were going to fly home to Washington State. Okay. Yeah. And so we said goodbye to mama that morning. We said goodbye to my little brothers that morning. I cried and cried and cried could not keep my stuff together.
Wendy
I thought, Well, you were saying goodbye. Or was it?
Jesse
Yeah, grandma was like, Oh, she's gonna blow it. She's gonna blow it right here.
Wendy
You it's kind of a town. Yeah.
Jesse
Yeah. Mom was like, what's wrong? I'm like, I'm just sad that grandma's leaving? And she's like, well, you need to get your shit together. Keep it together, Jesse. I'm like, okay, I can do this. And so I cried the whole way to the to the school, we met with the principal grandma was, do not call them do not tell them. Like I'm paying for the school. I have legal custody of Jesse. Here's all the paperwork that says that I have legal custody of her. And of course, the school was like, Oh, thank God, thank God, you're taking this poor child away from these people. And we flew to Washington State.
Wendy
Wow. So like, I would like to just put a pin in this like immediately right here because I'm sure there's like, loads and loads going on. Suffice it to say audience, there's plenty of other things that transpire in just even a story. Go get the book. And I would like to move toward, wow, the healing journey because like I just feel that would be important here. Before we actually do that. I know I just interrupted you. But I also would like to like, hey, like what else needs to be shared before we move toward the healing? More stories about the healing journey?
Jesse
So I lived with my grandmother for about nine months. And she had me in therapy. I was back in public school. I was back in my special classes. You were five and the aunties around me. I was at this point I was almost Seven, okay. And I was living at in Kent here in Washington at a seniors living facility. And it was a trailer park. And so there were little trailers all the way down the line. And we were the first trailer on the block. And we had a big pink, Japanese cherry blossom tree in our yard. And every day, grandma and grandpa would take a break, step away from having a crazy emotionally traumatized little person in their life. And they would walk down the street, just down the block to where the post office was. And they would get their mail and then they would come back, and they could see the trailer or like the whole walk, they could see the trailer from where they were. But this was their like, time to like, hold hands, take a breather, have a breath.
Well, unbeknownst to them, my mother had met another woman, Mary Sue, and told her that, you know, her daughter had been kidnapped by her mother, that she was being abused that she was in a horrible situation where you come with me to rescue my baby. And so they flew out to Washington rented a car and stalked me for three days. They followed my bus to school, they knew that grandma and grandpa took a walk every day and they waited. So grandma and grandpa went to take a walk. I was listening to Bing Crosby, on my headphones. And I was in my dress up clothes barefoot, even though it was December, it was warm inside and was knock on the door.
I was all alone. And so I just went over and answered the door. And here's a stranger, somebody I've never met before. Mary Sue. And she goes, come with me your mommy's in the car. And I was like, Oh, I know this one. I've been taught this one in school stranger danger. And so I said, No, I'm sorry. I don't go with strangers. And she just blinked. She looked at me and she goes, You're a very good girl. And I shut the door and I went, I should probably call one of the Auntie's, like the Auntie's need to know that this happened. This is something's going on. So I walked over the phone, and by the time I got phone, my five foot 10, towering woman, of a mother stomped through the door, like, busted the door down, stomped through the door, grabbed me by the arm kicking and screaming, dragged me down the steps.
I had splinters in my arms from trying to hold on to the side of the steps, dragged me across the gravel parking lot, threw me into the car, and we flew out of there, like a bat out of hell. We drove for three hours crossed into Oregon. And at that point, mama had crossed state lines, which means the FBI had gotten involved. By the time my grandparents and one of the neighbors saw called 911. By the time my grandparents got back from the post office, because it happens that quick. There were six police cars front of their building. And you were so we, and I was gone.
So after we crossed into Oregon, we pulled into a payphone remember those old pay phones. And Mama was like, and I'm just sobbing, just sobbing and sobbing and sobbing. And she had brought her nine month old son, my little brother with her. There was a baby in the
Wendy
Infant and Mary Sue and her mom and yourself
Jesse
Yes and my mother is screaming at me screaming at me. You are upsetting your little brother. You're upsetting your little brother get your shit together. And I'm just like, bawling. Oh, my gosh. And so so of course, once again, putting the onus on me. Why is this? Not my Oh,
Wendy
I see. Yeah, like your mom put the onus on you. My mom put the onus on me.
Jesse
It's your responsibility, your setting and your thoughts? Yeah, it's your it's a blame thing. So we pulled into the we pulled into the payphone. And she said, Okay, if you can stop crying, I'll let you talk to your grandmother. And so I sucked it up. Like all of my energy to stop. Okay, okay. Okay. So barefoot December, their foot in Oregon fancy club and I walked to the airport in fancy clothes. And I walked to the payphone.
And Mama called grandma. And I could hear on the other end of the phone, my grandmother screaming you bring her back this instance. And she's like, do you want to talk to her so you know, she's okay. And she put the phone down to me and I just burst into tears and screamed, Grandma, grandma, grandma. And Mama yanked the phone away, grabbed me by the shirt threw me onto the ground outside of the pay payphone. Mary Sue picked me up, put me back in the car, and I immediately fell asleep. Like immediately our engine shut down.
Wendy
Yeah. Understandable. Oh my gosh.
Jesse
Yeah. So the next day we flew home to North Carolina. Mary Sue lived in Michigan. And so we flew together to the Atlanta airport. Mama went with the baby because she was a nursing mother. And she wore a wig and sunglasses. And then Mary Sue, who there was no record of them being friends. I went dressed as her son, Jeremy.
So they tucked my hair up under a hat dressed me as boy, my ticket said Jeremy, and we flew to Atlanta. And that's where the FBI lost us in the airport. Oh my gosh. So we went, Mama collected me at that point in Atlanta, and Mary Sue flew home to Michigan. And then we went back to North Carolina and I was in hiding for two years. At that point, like I was dropped out the back window to neighbors I hid in a closet while the police searched the house. Like for years, this went on. And at some point between seven and eight, I completely lost my memory. Understandable. Except I remembered that Robert had abused me was not a safe person. And he never touched me again.
Wendy
I was going to ask Is he still in the picture?
Jesse
Ah, yes, he was in the picture all the way up until he passed away last year. Not in my life. Like I cut him completely out of my life. But he was still in my siblings lives until he passed away last year.
Wendy
Oh, man.
Jesse
And I remember the kidnapping. So I knew mama wasn't safe. But I didn't remember my grandma and grandpa. I didn't remember my Auntie's. I didn't remember like, I would get boxes from them. And Mama would tell me her version of like, oh, I bought these things for you. Well, how come there's a phone number written in the inside pages of this book? To call Auntie Mabel? Who's Auntie Mabel? Oh, that's my sister. She probably meant it for me. Oh, yeah. And I still have some of those books.
Wendy
Oh, man. So like, 100% reasonable to be losing your memory. But also like, I I'm just kind of at a loss of not knowing what to say around like, what about your identity like, that had to have, been just utterly not available as well, like you're starting over again and again and again, as a child, but then like to go and recover? When did your memories start to come back? Or how do you want to talk about that
Jesse
I was in high school. I was in high school. I started getting flashbacks. Uh huh. Like, severe flashbacks, like full blown, can't see things, seeing different things, complete flashbacks. And up until I started going to therapy in my 30s, I would still get flashbacks. And there are still times where like, I'll have like a memory that doesn't quite fit. And I'll have to reattach it somewhere and figure out like, oh, you know, a certain smell. And I'll be like, Okay, why does that remind me of grandma that doesn't say, and have to reattach it somewhere.
But yeah, I've lost a good chunk of my memory and then coming back to it as and then of course, when I left home, when I finally got away from the tailors. When I was 19, I immediately moved into an inner city commune in Chicago, so there was no real consistent place for healing for me until well into my 30s Oh, wow. And then I started going to therapy and like, I cannot recommend good therapy highly enough, right? That is so incredibly healing and helpful to have somebody there to pick up the pieces with you. Right? So you're not doing it alone.
Wendy
It's 100%. What how, how would you describe good therapy? Because I think for some people who were, you know, maybe considering therapy or considering some sort of support and what I mean, and having the background and the experience that you've had? How, how did you identify like good therapy for you?
Jesse
Oh, that's a great question. I needed somebody who would understand me and understand my story. So one of the things that I I struggle with, and I struggled with, with my therapist for three years, was trying to understand my story without connecting it to my heart, because I'm really on a smart cookie. And so I figured if I could just solve the brain, I'll just solve it in my head brain. Like maybe if I maybe if I organize it just so maybe if I can understand like, what was my mother thinking? And maybe that will help me to heal. And it took me three years before my therapist literally stopped me mid story and went, but how does this make you feel?
Wendy
100%
Jesse
Where are you connecting this in your body? And I was like, I'm not I don't want To me, that's a big scary place to go.
Wendy
It's all about my neck.
Jesse
So, yeah, it's all about, like, let's keep it there, it's safe up here, like I can keep it, you know, it's not connecting to my body at all. And I don't have to deal with the feelings that come along with that, my gosh, and so she would, she would literally do like, yoga with me, like, we would be like, I would be in the middle of starting a panic attack.
And she'd go, we're going to continue talking about this, but I want you to lay on the floor. We're going to put your feet up, we're going to stretch our arms, we're going to breathe in and out and and so she did a lot of like, physically keeping me what color are your socks? Jesse, Jesse, what color are your sock in the body, they soft, like keeping me in my body as I walked through some of these things. Because the only connection that I had to my body was panic.
Wendy
Oh my gosh, and she was like making it a very active and present and safe way to feel something. Yes, something
Jesse
And keeping me from disassociating like keeping me from completely like going off off into the dark place
Wendy
Right or just into like, what the story of what happened was, like, the process of sort of becoming friends with your body when there were so much that was, you know, of your body that was attacked and violated and, dismissed and ghastly, making friends with something deep and safe inside of you is a big deal.
Jesse
It really really is I can't I like there's really, it's hard to even explain it. And until you're actually in that and you start to feel like you're living in your body for the first time. Like I'm comfortable in my, in my own skin for the first time, like I can have, I can tell my story. And I can tell the story and have it connect up here in my head, but also down here. Or like where am I feeling the story at this particular moment is this is are my shoulders tight, or my legs or my toes like clenched up, like what's going on in my body and being able to connect that in a safe way and realize that I'm a safe person.
Wendy
And in a safe place. There's a lot of wisdom in the body just in terms of like mammal adrenaline, like safety is, is a prime element that we watch for and look for. And when we've gone through some, like really big life stuff, you have and others have and like we all have our own to acknowledge and move through. It's a big deal to sort of get settled and learn how to regulate ourselves based on just what the body needs, like whether it's shaking or moving or it gets hot, like my spine often will get really hot when I'm getting activated or heightened. Do you have certain cells in your body that are like okay, what?
Jesse
I get spiders to crawl off the back of my shoulder blades? Yep, like every time like I can feel it, it's usually on the side. And it will like out when when I get heightened. Like it feels like there's a spider crawling up my back like itches. And, and it's but it's inside of me. And it does. It's interesting. I had it happened recently. I was switching some medications. And so my anxiety level had gone up by about 25% and I had that spider crawl up the back of my shoulder and I went well I haven't felt that in a minute. Wow. Oh, so you know it the farther into the into my my healing process that I go, the less often I feel the spiders and the more comfortable I am in my own body.
I will say my mother believed in purity culture, the purity culture was strong in our family and a lot of religious trauma as well. And so not only was shown that my body was not mine, but I was told that my body was not mine. Like I was specific. You were trained by my mother. Yes, your body doesn't belong to you. You are a servant to this family. You will cook and clean and care for the children and like all of those things for me. And then for your father, you will practice literally said the words you will practice what it looks like to have a husband on your stepfather. You will clean up after him. You will cook for him you will make his lunches. You will pray for him every day. You will call him to remind him that he is loved. You will be there to greet him when he gets home. You will hold his hand when you are in public. You will let him hug you. However he is comfortable. All the He never touched me again.
After I credibly accused him of assaulting me. He never touched me again. He was scared. Oh my God, but He treated me like his girlfriend. So I didn't like and honestly, I didn't know what it looks like because I never dated when I was growing up. We weren't I wasn't allowed to you won't
Wendy
You might have been like ejected from your body. Like all all of this just creates more and more shutdown, more and more distrust between like the mind that is like, ready to take care of you and the one that's traumatized that seeking any kind of survival. Like because like, honestly, this is about survival. In all of this.
Jesse
It goes all the way down to where the only thing you're thinking about is surviving the next day 100% or minute, there's yeah, there's no growth. Yes, exactly. There's no growth, there's no opportunity for self reflection. There's no place for healing. It's all about survival. So when I left home when I was 19, and I moved to the inner city commune and I met my ex husband, and that's where I got married. I actually flew out to art took a train rather took a train from Chicago, to Seattle, to meet my Auntie's, and my grandma and grandpa for the first time, since I had lost my memory.
And it was so healing tears all around. My grandfather's grumpy old saw it but he was very emotional. He like, pointedly like we were sitting there. And we were all talking and chatting, because we're very chatty family. And I look over and my grandfather, the Navy man is just sitting there staring at me. And I was like, Okay, what's up, grandpa? Nice to meet you. But this is a little weird. What's happening? And he goes, Well, first of all, I need to apologize to you for letting you go to North Carolina. I shouldn't have done that. I messed up.
Wendy
What did that do for you? Like? Yeah, talk about why did you register that in your body? Like, what what kind of moment was that?
Jesse
I was just, I was so stunned. I was just so stunned. And he goes, and the other thing is, I'm realizing that as much as I wanted to meet you again, and as excited as I am to meet you. See you as a 21 year old is really cool. But there's a little seven year old girl that is completely gone. And I'm just over here with my heartbroken. Because she doesn't exist anymore. And I just need to take space for that. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah,
Wendy
That is such like a totally, like, emotionally mature thing.
Jesse
Right, my grumpy old sort of a grandfather. And he was like, in his space at that point. Like I was really, I was, it was beyond my ability to be impressed. Looking back. Very impressed.
Wendy
Oh, my gosh, yeah. And in the moment, more stunned, more, like, I completely stopped. Wow. I mean, it's totally chatty. Yes, it is to like, sometimes that can be a smoothing agent is the chatty, but to have like that real element where he owns his experience. Yeah, and you're there for it to witness it was that healing at all, as you look back on it.
Jesse
So healing, so in every time I every time I circle back to it and have that conversation, there's just a connecting point with my grandfather all over again, where it's like, you saw me in a way that I hadn't been seen before. And you, you, you, that conversation helps me because of course, of course, I went through like a period of time as I was going through my healing where I was mad at him like yeah, why why the hell yeah. Would you knowing that my mother was the crazy person that she was knowing that she was not a safe person? Why would you send a five year old into that situation? Right. Right.
And being angry now I needed to feel those feelings and walk through them. Yeah. But the fact that he like, preemptively apologize. And, and of course, there's a lot of toxic positivity that has happened over the years of like, well, you know, this wasn't what we wanted, but this was what God wanted. Oh. Well, you know, God put you down there for a reason you were there to protect your siblings. Why did I need to protect my siblings?
Wendy
Where were you? Yeah, when? When was I the child
Jesse
There's there's quite a bit of toxic positivity over the years through my extended family that has kind of popped in that I've just had to go Hmm
Wendy
Oh, stepping back here. I'm gonna go hide here. Let's not let's have a we don't and No. and No. Yeah. Oh, Jesse wow, man. So I have one specific question that I would love to hear about just like as the final question as we wrap up, I know there's more in your story. I know there's more in your healing. But I would love it if you would talk a little bit about the difference between healing pain and continued pain, like I imagined that like you going through years and decades of therapy and personal development and sort of boundary work honestly. Tell me about healing pain, and how that could be different from just regular emotional, heartbreak pain, if you if that feels like that.
Jesse
No, absolutely. So I feel like the best way that I can describe healing, for me at least is you're standing on a beach. And when you're standing on a beach in the sand, and you get your feet in the sand, and the waves are coming in, and sometimes it's just lapping against your feet, and it's fine. And sometimes it's a little bit deeper, sometimes you can feel the sand being pulled out from underneath your feet. Sometimes you get a sneaker wave that comes in and knocks you completely down. And sometimes the tide goes out. Sometimes the tide comes back in the whole time, you're still standing in that space on the beach, and you have to experience all of those things to heal.
And there's no final definition of like, I was therapy for like, four years before I realized that I wasn't going to get a gold sticker at the end of that said that I was better. All I was getting was tools to help me live with and walk through the experiences that I had had. But there is no like magic, like, you get a gold sticker. You're never going to have another bad day, you're never going to have a flashback again. It's it's a consistent thing. But the farther one time definitely makes a difference. And to therapy definitely makes a difference. And learning to live in your body makes a difference. Tremendous that you're always going to be standing on that beach. I feel like there's a lot of things in in my story where I had to literally go back like I had to go back to
Wendy
Like geographically back. It was the the sounds cut out. I can no longer hear you right now. That's weird. Yeah. Oh, here you are saying,
Jesse
So yes, geographically, I went back to North Carolina with my best friend and bless her heart good. And she went with me. And we went and stood outside these houses, and even walk through one of the houses just to like, be in the space and cry and mourn. And because there's there's the different levels like, Okay, you were sexually assaulted. I need to mourn the fact that I wasn't protected. I need to mourn the fact that I was abused and even more in the fact that I didn't have a stepfather that loved me. I need to mourn the fact that my mother didn't protect me. There's all those things that you have to go through grief for, and then healing for. And there's all those different levels.
Like, for example, I didn't. Up until eight years ago, I still defended my stepfather whenever I would talk about the abuse. You don't understand. Papa was abused when he was a kid. You don't understand he was in an abusive relationship with a woman who'd hated him. That, that then my therapist is sitting there calling her eyes out look going, okay. And my husband was the one to go. But you were five. Yeah. Imagine your grandson. I would I would do horrible things to somebody, you've touched my grandson. He's like, right. And would your grandson be responsible for any of those things? Right.
Wendy
Taking your own side, yeah, we aren't taught this. Oh, my gosh, just a huge, friggin huge,
Jesse
Huge healing moment. And of course, my best friend is Alaska at the time. So I'm calling her on this, like crappy cell phone and Alaska. And she's breaking up and I'm like, No, you don't understand. This is the biggest thing that's ever happened to me in the
Wendy
In the longest time.
Jesse
So I feel like at the end of the day healing is. It's different for everybody. And it's it's important to continue plugging away. One of my favorite authors, Dean Koontz talks about and one of his books. He talks about life. And life is not a race to the end sometimes. Sometimes it's just slogging through. Sometimes it's just sitting in it. And that's life. And so if like I would, I would hope to your listeners. If you're in that point where you're looking around and you're just slogging through your knee deep in the sand. The waves are coming in at you that you keep standing up as much as you can and if you need to sit in it sit in it. But remember that the waves are gonna go back out. Right? You're gonna have that breathing room again, right? This isn't this, isn't it?
Wendy
Not the destination. Well, and support can be available. Did you find that having somebody standing next to you on that beach or imagining support next to you on that beach was part of healing? Or did that make it easy or at all?
Jesse
Life altering? My best friend is my rock. She is absolutely my rock. And I can't tell you how many times she has grabbed me by one arm and pulled me up above the waves. Just be like, Okay, you might need to sit in this, but you still have to breathe. Hang on. Hang on, you still have to breathe. Yeah, like, yeah, it's important to have a support network. And it's important to have good people around you. And also if you if you can get into therapy, or you can get into counseling, I highly recommend that because it's so nice to have a safe person there with you to just go okay, I've walked this path before. I've been on this beach. I've been on this beach
Wendy
Or I'm just here it looks while you're on your beach. Like, yeah, I like I'm not going anywhere. We're in. We're on your beach right now. Huge. Oh, Jesse René Gibbs, thank you very much for your time and your care and for your own healing, because that's the RAD after life experience and many lives have experience that you've been through and gone through. Pick up Girl Hidden at isn't an audio book as well. Is it a paperback?
Jesse
audio book as well? Yeah. So it's available in paperback ebook and audiobook. You can find out more at girlhidden.com.
Wendy
Great. Jesse. Thank you again. Thanks, everybody, and we'll talk to you next week.
Hey, thanks for listening. And if you are interested in doing a little deeper work in my group coaching program, go to goinginside.me See what I did there, goinginside.me. That's an annual program. We can work together in a group setting. And you'll see all the details right there. love to have you join. Thank you for listening, and I'll talk to you next week.
