Episode 38: Burnout, aka Compassion Fatigue, and Loss
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A Conversation with Carl Arrogante
When you're a caretaker, it can be difficult to remember to also take care of yourself. But not acknowledging your own boundaries, needs, and triggers can be dangerous; ignoring them for too long can cause the dreaded BURNOUT. Burnout, AKA Compassion Fatigue Once you reach the point of burnout, or "compassion fatigue," it can be hard to find or fight your way back. And too many people in the healing professions are lost because they neglect their own need to heal and be whole. |
We talk about causes for burnout, and how to avoid them.
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In this conversation, Grief Coach Wendy Sloneker talks with Coach and Burnout Expert Carl Arrogante on the warning signs and potential dangers of ignoring impending burnout.
You're Invited
Listen, then find Carl at his website, https://www.coachingwithcarl.net/. And if you're looking for help to heal from grief, be sure to set up a Connection Call with me at wendy.sloneker@gmail.com.
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Full Episode Transcript
Wendy Sloneker
You are listening to the Heart Healing From Loss podcast with Wendy Sloneker. This is episode 38.
Heck yes, it is.
Hi, everybody, I want to introduce you to Carl Arrogante. He's a coach of first responders and social workers and those of the helping professions who work in an important role with other people, often an emotional role with other people.
His expertise includes burnout or compassion fatigue. And so I really am excited to introduce you to him and to him to you. And I'm delighted about this entire conversation. Thanks for being here. Thanks for listening. Here we go.
Hi, everybody, and welcome. I'm delighted, Carl Arrogante say that you are here. Right here right now. Welcome.
Carl Arrogante
Thank you. I'm happy to be here.
Wendy
Amazing. Amazing. Hey, everybody, I wanted to bring Carl on because one, he's a burnout specialist coach, but also his background in history, like, I really want to give you a taste of his story because it's rich. And it's excellent. And so Carl, we actually have a little bit of a parallel in some of our work together, as we were getting to know each other, I haven’t known you for long.
But I feel like I've known you for a long, long time. And so we have some things in common. I used to work as a behavioral counselor for a group home. And it was largely for foster kids. I worked with the teenage girl's house, predominantly.
And Carl, you had knowledge of this organization, which was shocking to me; not everybody knew about it. But you did. So tell me a little bit about you and your initial work around child welfare, agency work, and things like this just to get started.
Carl
Well, I found myself in child welfare, kind of by accident, but not really by accident. So my background is primarily in substance abuse treatment and prevention. So I've worked as a substance abuse counselor for many years, longer than I care to remember or to disclose. How about that? But I'm originally from the East Coast, Miami, and so when we moved here about 10 years ago, I worked for the juvenile rehabilitation, what used to be called JRA, and DCYF.
I don't even know what they're called now, but part of the Children's Administration. So I worked in JRA as a substance as residential counselor in their substance abuse treatment program. And I loved it, fantastic work. I had a good time there. Everyone, everything was great. But you know, you get through those periods in your career when sometimes you just want to change, look at new opportunities, this that and the other thing.
So I sought after, for no particular reason not because I was dissatisfied with my job. I enjoyed my job, but I was looking to see what else was out there. I'm an Aquarian, so my attention span tends to be pretty cyclical.
I saw an opportunity to work in child welfare for the department of children, youth and families, working primarily with child investigations, Child and Family Welfare Services and dependency. So I said, that sounds like an interesting kind of an area. I explored it and asked around.
You know you do all of the due diligence. It's especially the fact that my office would have been five minutes from my house. So lifestyle bonus, I was like, okay, as opposed to you know, so anyway, long story longer. I made some connections, and I found my way over to Child and Family Welfare Services and found that although I wasn't primarily doing substance abuse, you know, focused work.
I found that my history and my background in substance abuse really lent itself to the mission of that particular position, which was what I wanted. I wanted to sort of, you know, you want to just try different things. I found it to be rejuvenating and energizing.
It was great to be there up until I left that recently. But one of the first clients that I had was a former resident of your facility, and no one knows about this facility anymore. It was quite the place before, but it is no longer operating. So, when you mentioned that the first time we met, I was like, okay, so this person's the real deal. She's been there and that.
So it was instantly one of the many things that connected me to you.
Wendy
Oh, my gosh, and can you remember back? I'm so delighted by just how we got to meet together. But can you remember sort of back when you were exploring child welfare? And that being a new opportunity? What was it about the work? I mean, I get the five-minute commute and lifestyle change? And was it like the expansion of a new sort of customer base or service care? What was it about that drew you in because it does not draw everybody? Carl?
Carl
No. Well, I have a master's in marriage and family therapy. So I'm rooted in my education. My passion is always in family systems. And so even though I was working within, in substance abuse, for example, I always knew one of my foundations of how I look at the world and how I interact with my clients is always through a family systems perspective.
So when I saw the opportunity, once again, to get reconnected with families, working with families, and different sort of iterations of what a family looks like, and even foster families, you know, that was like, Okay, this is where I want to go. And then when I finally met the team, I met my then supervisor, who was also very, very rooted in that sort of systemic alignment, as far as how they make sense of the world. That's what really drew me to it.
So it was really more of a coming back home to it, rather than finding necessarily something new, because it was all about family. When I saw Child and Family, I thought, let me check that out.
Wendy Sloneker
For you, amazing. Yeah. Thank you. Well, and it's like, it's true when they say, you know, I felt called.
Carl
I did and it took me, which is the nature of this work as well. I walked into it thinking I had a skill set, I walked into it thinking, Okay, this is going to be, you know, not more of the same, but I'm going to know. I'm going to be able to feel this, and it's going to be a piece of cake.
I learned very, very quickly that working in child welfare is a completely different animal entirely. And so very much, even though I did have skills, I did have a history, I very much was learning, you know. From day one, from other more veteran social workers and supervisors. And so I was just as much a student as I was a team, you know, a contributor to the team.
So that was challenging, but at the same time, again, energizing and exciting because I was learning new ways and new systems to interact with and interface with and again, it's just satisfying that systems part of my brain that I that I love.
Wendy
Plus the Aquarian who's like, ready for something a little bit new.
Carl
Always. And then working in child welfare, it’s something new every day. Your know from where you used to work. Every shift might be different.
Wendy
Yeah, what is today? This is today. Right? And so when it comes to similar people who are experiencing seasons of grief, it's like, okay, what kind of day am I walking into here? What kind of day? Sometimes it's really heavy, and sometimes it's a little lighter than we expect when it comes to seasons of grief and loss or just hard feelings. Yeah. Speaking of which, let's talk about burnout.
Wendy
Let's go, Carl! Everybody, you ready? We're taking you with us. All right. So when did burnout become an area of interest? And was that another kind of calling for you?
Carl
Let's talk about it. So burnout was an area of interest that started when I was in grad school—being a child of helping professionals. My dad was a doctor and OB-GYN, and my mom was a registered dietician. And so seeing and then being surrounded by family and friends. I've always had the good fortune of being around helping folks and helping professionals. And so I've always had an affinity towards them and why they do what they do.
You know, through school, there was this idea of burnout which was starting to come up as something, trends that were being found, especially amongst doctors, first responders, and police officers. And back then, again, many hundreds of years ago, when I was in school, it wasn't as prominent as it is today. But it did capture me because I know the effects. I've seen it, you know, how hard my dad was working. And my mom and my aunt, who's a nurse. Hearing the stories and I'm like, Oh, my gosh, why'd you do that? I don't get this. So that's what started my interest. And then I’ve just sort of been stuck with me ever since.
And then, when I actually began working in the field myself, I started to see it firsthand and experience it firsthand. But at the same time, the interesting thing about people, especially in the helping professions, like therapists, social workers, etc. We have an interesting relationship with burnout, which I find fascinating. You know, for example, if you get a bunch of social workers or therapists together, it's like four o'clock in the afternoon, it's almost time to say, “Hey, let's go hit a happy hour.”
They say, “Okay, I'm in”, “are you in, Joe?” “ Yeah, I'm in go get Wendy.”
But then somebody always inevitably says, “Okay, let's go, but we're not going to talk about work.” “Okay, deal.”
So you meet at 5:30, and you're all ordering your first round of drinks at 5:30. At 5:05. We're all talking about work. You know, and it's because we love our work. We are people who are called to this job. We feel like we're born to do it.
But it takes its toll on us. We pay a severe toll. And so I'm always fascinated with the dance that we have with burnout, where some of us just throw ourselves and martyr ourselves on the altar of burnout. But we still keep on going, you still keep doing it.
And that's where as I progressed in my job career and became a supervisor, eventually mentor, and started to realize, Wow, I'm losing a lot of really, really good folks. People who are really good at what they do, but it's taking its toll, and they're not lasting, the pace that they're going, they're not sustainable. So that's how I really started sinking my teeth into and seeing what I can do to help mitigate these things?
Wendy
Right, thank you. And I'm wondering if, because in my experience, I've experienced some forms of burnout. And I'm wondering, what I noticed about my own experiences, I had a lot to do with my own burnout. Because I would push, I would drive, I would hustle, I would shoehorn myself into more hours. More and more and more, as though I was limitless.
Yes, and I'm not. I'm a human being who has some limits. And so I'm wondering if that's something that you also notice, because not only is there like an organization with an organizational sort of demand or culture and sort of tone setting, but there's also us each personally who can contribute.
Were you finding that it was contributing both from the organizational and cultural standpoint, but also from each individual?
Carl
Absolutely. And that's what I think is the most interesting part of the burnout discussion, because, yes, there is, of course, the sort of organizational, systemic, bureaucratic, sort of potential causes that can contribute to ultimately burnout.
That's a conversation that we could have, but I'm most interested in the conversation that you're talking about. What is it about the individual that either predisposes them or suddenly they find themselves experiencing compassion fatigue, specifically, or burnout? I love that conversation.
So to start, I don't know where you want to begin, but it starts with, Yes, I think helping professionals, especially counselors, therapists, social workers. That's the term I used, helping professionals. Those are who I'm talking about. They signed up for it its a true calling.
You ask most people, so why? Why are you here? What made you get into child welfare or what got you into working in substance abuse? They'll say, Well, I just want to help. And that's a beautiful thing, a beautiful concept. But very rarely are people prepared, definitely aren’t being prepared for it in school. There are some occupational hazards to that desire to help, especially when that desire isn't always reciprocated or wanted. But then that's where the real work comes into play.
And I don't think folks are prepared for that contradiction. Not in school, definitely not in school. I think that that's where it starts. I used to do a mentoring group with master's level students, where we tried to bridge that gap between the educational experience and then real-life experience and sort of prepare them for having conversations.
So you're going to go into this situation with all of these skills and all of the exuberance of wanting to help. But probably eight out of the 10 people that you're going to see really don't want your help, or they're going to fake it as if they want your help. They need your help. Right. But their circumstances may make it presentable. So they're either there because the court, especially in substance abuse, because the court sent them there, because their family, maybe I'll give them an ultimatum. So all of their motivations for change are generally external, and they're not internal.
If you're motivated by external change, it'll get you somewhere, but is it going to really have the longevity of if you wanted that change? And so, I’ve encountered a lot of that duality, that contradiction starts, the burnout starts that would ultimately end up in compassion fatigue and burnout, because, well, I don't know, I did everything and they still relapsed.
You know, I worked with him all day long. And I did this, that and the other thing, and I invested so much time, but yet, there was an undesired result.
Wendy
It can be interpreted as, you know, ineffective. It can be interpreted as but it doesn't have to be this, it is totally optional. But we don't know that as young people, we're just starting out in the field.
Carl
And it gets interpreted as I'm ineffective. I know, when I first started experiencing burnout, that was the hallmark of my compassion fatigue, was I started questioning my viability and my ability to do the job I had with my first placements. I was under a supervisor, same was Joe.
And he had seemed to have this unending well of energy. He was on top of, at least from what I could see, on top of his paperwork, he ran a team, he was there all the time, he was there early, he was there late, he was doing all of the things to run this amazing facility. And so I really looked up to him as a standard of what it takes to make it in this gig. You know, unrealistically high standards, but again, through my eyes at the time, this is the standard I sang.
So then when I was unable to keep up, or I was unable to get results that were you know, that met my standards. The first place I went was to internalize my inability. Am I even cut out for this? Maybe I should have been a welder.
I think being a welder would have been better because at least I'm not going to hurt anybody, you know. Then you start to internalize those messages. And in those things start to have gravity and weight throw on top of the workload and the stuff that contributes to the burnout part, the profession, the environment of the job, it was only a matter of time before I hit the wall and crashed and burned.
It starts with that. And if I look back at one of the things I learned was, you know, having a acknowledging and knowing what, what the limitations are, I don't know I hate saying the limits when it comes to professional personal development because there really are no limits.
Right? But you know, what do you have control over and what don't you? What is the boundary? You really can't change anybody unless they want to change, you know, and at whatever level they want. And their motivation will only take but being able to be okay with that and not having to save everybody, especially for young, new people. You want to go in there and save everyone.
Wendy
Well, and there's a lot of talk in our social culture about making it happen or making an impact or yes, living your best life, and it's a painful sentiment when you're faced with having to create and set boundaries for yourself. I was really mad when I had needs that were not being met. I had to contain what it was, I could do, you know, out there and be okay with no matter what happened externally. Here's how I can show up, regardless of anything else that is going to happen or not happen.
Carl
Ever since I was a kid, I always struggled with this idea that I was missing out on stuff. I had an amazing childhood. But the thing about me is that I always felt like that, ever since I could remember. I always felt like what was going on over there. So I always wanted to be available, and accessible so that I wouldn't miss out on anything.
And so I love my work, I loved working within the field, I loved it, you know, and I still love it. So I was more than happy to sacrifice my time, because, okay, well, I'm working, you know, from eight to five, okay, I'm off at five. Let me just check my emails at seven. Oh, my God, there's any emergency oh no. I lived like 10 minutes away from the campus. So I could easily go over there. Hey, let me just check that. You know, I saw the email.
That's my client, let me know what not working, you know. And of course, everybody else is high-performing, task-oriented individual. So everyone sort of couches it in terms of we're all family. We're all dedicated. But that erodes when you forsake those boundaries, and it did for me eventually caught up. When I was, like you said, taking on more shifts working overtime.
I wasn't forced as like, well, you know, I'm supposed to be off at five, why isn't this person supporting my work? My relief here? Oh, don't worry about it. Okay. Okay. I get a text, hey, I'm going to be 30 minutes late. Is that okay? I should have said, well, actually, it's not okay. But no problem come in, whenever and of course, they would come in whenever.
Again, it's not their problem. It's me just being too open and too loose. Because I just wanted to do good. I just wanted to be helpful. Hindsight is 2020, I'm sure I probably would have had more longevity if I had just had some basic boundaries and limits.
Wendy
Right? Well, that is something that, you know, is so personal, right, like having that bridge conversation between school and learning and then into the actual field. We're not really taught about specific self-care, we're not really taught about learning our own boundaries.
Certainly not in public school, it was not there, I'll just say that. It was not there. But this is what we eventually learn. And it's hard, because there's also this sort of thought error, if you will, that's pervasive thinking that more time will be more valuable,
Carl
Right, and more and more rewarded, you know, so I find if I'm thinking about as well, you know, I wanted to do good, because I wanted to good by my supervisor, I really wanted this person. And I've always had this very, very strong mentors, I've been fortunate in every single one of my placements. I've had amazing mentors.
And that was very much a motivator for me. But it was also a contributor to my willingness to sacrifice what I needed, in order to make them happy, or to meet their deadlines or to meet their deliverables, whatever you could be it. So when I became a supervisor, I tried to remind myself of that, we as much as we'd like to say there aren't hierarchies. And you know, there are, there are whether you mean them to be or not.
And it really takes a conscious effort to, to normalize and to have everyone speaking on the same level. Burnout isn't one of the best places to do that and the most difficult places to do that. But yeah, we impose those sorts of standards on ourselves, for whatever reasons, and one of the first things I do when I talk about burnout with my, you know, clients is, what are those?
What are those? What are those standards and ideals that you're trying to live up to? What is the core? What is your mission? You know, and then a lot of times, if it's like, I just want to help people, that's when I go, okay? I've been down this road before, because unless we do some things to prepare, that's not going to be a long career, or it's going to be a very painful one, you know, and then ultimately, then someone gets hurt, or could potentially get hurt.
And we don't want that. We all just want to do no harm. But it starts with not doing harm to ourselves. Yeah, let's count ourselves.
Carl
Hashtag do no harm to myself.
Wendy
Yeah. I'm gonna count me in. For sure. So I'll kind of want to touch back on something you said a little bit earlier. And I'd like to pose it in the form of you mentioned occupational hazards of the job.
Carl
I said that, that sounds smart.
Wendy
I know it was it sounded great. Like let's revisit. So occupational hazards of, you know, going into a caring role, or a service role that we've been talking about this entire episode from a space of I just want to help.
What would you like count as things to watch out for that could be occupational hazards? We've mentioned boundaries. We've mentioned knowing a little bit about our own limits. What else would be there that you might advise as someone who's a specialist in burnout, but also knowing all of this experience?
Carl
Oh, well, compassion fatigue is the big umbrella, right? That is, the big hazard is compassion fatigue is real. And no matter how much you care for your job, no matter your vocation, no matter how much you care for your patients, compassion fatigue is like a wolf just waiting to happen.
And it starts and I think it starts with rather innocuous ways, you know, it might be just, you know, just feeling tired or having low energy, or, you know, these are all bred little stepping stones that will lead ultimately to compassion fatigue, and burnout, you know. So, from the beginning, understanding, having a good balance, be acknowledging that it's real.
That's the first one, acknowledging that compassion fatigue is a risk, and that, you know, no one's immune to it. You know, even that supervisor that you respect and admire, that's been in the industry for three decades, they get it, okay, they're just dealing with it in a different kind of way. So acknowledging that it's real, but the next thing is having that balance of because we oftentimes we tip the scales towards imbalance towards the work and not towards ourselves. That's that self care continuum, right.
So, you know, I don't, I was planning on going home and watching the next episode of The Walking Dead, but you know, what, this is more important, I need to work with this person is more important. Yes. But no. And being able to enforce those boundaries, and that balance is, ebbs and flows, depending on the day.
Wendy
Well, and the state of the erosion, as you mentioned.
Carl
The eroding of your self worth. That's all. That's the, that's what all of the sacrifices, you know of your time. That's what has that eroding effect on your, on yourself. So if I answered your questions, there's so much more. Yeah. But that's those are some of the hazards, you know, and of course, there's lots of signs.
But you know, again, when you start not feeling the joy or that excitement, you know, one of the things that's a big occupational hazard is I just want to help but eventually I don't want to help anymore because no one seems to. And so feeling a little bit jaded, feeling a little bit like this is a job because at the end of the day, it is a job. And so when you're helping just for the sake of helping, it usually feels good all around.
Like, if you're helping your neighbor, take out the garbage, or you're helping your neighbor through a hard time that's, that feels pretty good and is oftentimes reciprocated with a thank you, or reciprocated with a box of some cookies, or a hug or something.
When you've taken this on as a job or as an as a profession. You don't always have that luxury of reciprocation, of where someone is going to say thank you, even though they might be thinking, thank you. But they might be saying a FU.
Wendy
Right, it may take a while before the thanking comes in.
Carl
It may take a while. Yeah, I found that I learned this only a matter of time. Some of my most difficult clients are my most grateful ones. They're the ones who reach out to me later on and say, Man, I was really a pain in the butt.
But thank you, because I may have failed out of the program. But I'm still done this, that and the other thing. But again, you can't rely on that. So as a professional, you have to accept the fact that that reciprocity of validation, external validate, you know, the external thanks, and is generally not going to happen, which is why you need to find it amongst your peers, you need to find it, you have to find other sources of validation.
So that's another big occupational hazard is there's so many hazards.
Wendy
Well, and cultivating that inside yourself. Like that's also something that we can learn, like, Oh, I'm going to like take credit for that thing that I did. Like I put sunscreen on today, which I don't often do that but I was going outside and I was like, Okay, this super pasty face is getting some protection. And so, like, I felt kind of like okay, like I feel proud about that. That is something that I don't normally do. That's something I don't do usually offer myself to take care of myself in that way.
Carl
No, they don't and and I think again also people who've chosen this profession generally don't want to take on that. They don't normally do that. Their self care. Oh my goodness. Isn't that's my dog barking. Can you hear of it?
Wendy
Yeah,what's their name?
Carl
Her name is Pocky. We're good. Let's keep going.
Wendy
We're good. Let's keep going.
Carl
Are you sure? Okay, so so. So most people who are in this profession, that's not the first thing that they do is take care of themselves, because they're very much altruistic and extra, they're taking care of others, or natural tech is, especially the very good ones.
Oh, my God. But that is a skill that has to be, you have to remember, you have to be remembered to do that, you know, like, and so are reminded to do that, sorry. So when I came to a position of where I had a team underneath me, or I was mentoring, folks, was exactly that.
Celebrating, giving accolades, giving achievements going with the strengths as opposed to the weaknesses, and because that is the stuff that keeps the machine going.
Wendy
It's really good fuel. We need it as humans.
Carl
Yeah. But we don't give it to ourselves enough, especially helping professionals. So that's, that's one of the hazards again, is this forgetting to take care of yourself or straight up resisting or resisting? Yeah, or thinking that we're not worthy, or whatever.
That's another hazard is this job is not your therapy. Helping profession is not, it's helping others, not necessarily helping yourself, it can have a curative effect, it can make you feel good. But if you're looking for that validation for yourself through your job, it's probably a bad idea. And it's probably happens more often than not. I've worked with a lot of folks who've had exactly that, well, it just makes me feel good.
And, or I've this, history of this, that and the other and I just want to sort of help. And it's really it's like, okay, so it's about you. Yeah, and that's kind of backwards, and very, very scary and risky, because those people don't, they usually don't last.
Wendy
Beacuase if I can just hurl myself and throw myself at a problem, then like, I'm gonna feel great. I'm also going to be able to ignore myself.
Carl
Yeah, but then again, it's I, I , I, me, me, me. Totally, but if you're a professional, it's about your clients, it's about your patients. And those are, that's what your primary goal should be.
Wendy
Right. And that's, that's probably better for avoiding burnout and compassion fatigue as well.
Carl
It does mitigate it. Because if again, if you understand that your self-worth isn't dependent on the progress or outcomes of your clients, it's a little bit easier to get through the day. Not only that, it's also easier to formulate strategies and interventions because then you're not so Oh, I'm just got it, do they got to do this.
But if they're not, if it's not good, if the intervention isn't clicking, then just move on to the next one. And you have that ability, like a carpenter with tools or like a chef with lots of ingredients? Well, you know, maybe salt isn't what I need, maybe I need pepper, so let's go with more pepper.
There isn't a lot of attachment. So there's a detachedness to your connection. So it's a simultaneity. So you're connecting, but you're also have a level of detachment so that you can see it as a, quote, unquote, through a professional lens, not just merely as one human being trying to help another.
Wendy
Right? Well, and this is where it gets into, like, we could talk for another six hours about, like, Hey, this is this is where we hand people, like we don't try to take the their experience from them. Like they're wholly capable of utilizing these resources.
Here they are, as well as the dignity of their experience, and their results and everything that goes with it. Like, including the wins, like that's on them. Like, this is just the tools. Here's the tools.
Carl
Yep. And you're there as a sort of guide. I always saw myself in my relationships with my clients as they're at the wheel, and I'm riding shotgun. I'm not even backseat driving, because I hate backseat drivers. Right? But I've been to these places I've been to this place before.
So I can say you could take a right well, I want to take a left, but we could take a left, but it might take us a little bit longer. But yeah, let's go left. But you know, or there are hazards down that road. And I don't think it would be a good idea to go down that road. I might suggest this path, and then they'll choose the path, you know, but it's really their ride and I'm in conjunction to that ride.
And I've learned to conceptualize my helping relationship in that way to preserve my own, like, again, to mitigate my burnout, where I'm just like, where I'm not feeling so I don't want it to sound like I'm not attached to my clients, I'm very much attached to them, but I have the boundary where it belongs so that I can keep doing what I do, because I won't burn myself out.
Wendy
Right, you know, well, and then like, they're not ever doing anything wrong, because it's their right anyway,
Carl
it's their ride, it's their ride. It’s Good.
Wendy
You know, sometimes judgment, I think can get in on helping professions. If only they would this and if only they would that, but you know what they're not, they're people who were doing their own thing. That's not,
Carl
It's not ours. And then what happens, which is another pitfall, or another potential hazard of burnout is this idea of when you depersonalized, or when you think, were the sick were the failure, or the if a if a if your, if your client or patient or whatever you want to call it isn't reaching their goals, or is not really clicking with you, then we blame them?
Well, they're resistant, or they're not doing the work, or they're not showing up or they're not listening? The hard, the hard reality is no, you're not, you know, it's you, it's you that the helping professional, you're doing something wrong, that's probably taking them triggering, or whatever you want to call it, that's influencing that resistance, you know, otherwise, it would be.
So that's a hard thing to face to that, Oh, my God, that's when you get well, I have a degree in this or I've been doing that as like, doesn't really count for much. If your clients aren't really down with you. So
Wendy
And then like, there are some freedom in that too. On the other side, once the defensiveness kind of wears off, because then it's like, okay, well, what do we need to do to achieve this result? Do I need to present it in a different way? What can I do and so that's totally optional, to like, go for a different solution from a different angle.
Like, it's kind of like trying to get to the ice cream store that has like, you know, it's on one certain block, and there's like, 16 ways to get their ice cream motivated.
Carl
But that that comes with you really sitting there and being there present for your client. It's not about you, you know, and your ability to make those to have that discernment and put yourself in a position of well, how can I optimize my clients experience and respect their that it's about their experience, it's not about how much you know, it's not a competition, you're not trying to save anybody you're not trying to.
And that is the, again, one of the hardest discussions and one of the hardest pills to swallow, when a person is sort of going through the burnout are going through the stages of compassion fatigue, one of those earliest signs are, you know, the blaming, well, it's them. It's them, or it's the agency. And the reason why I'm not getting results is because of everything else, except for maybe it's you as maybe a little bit a little bit as you very hard pill to swallow.
Wendy
0000 4% with you,
Carl
But they'll claim every success, right? It's like, oh, well, look what I did look at the client, I took them, you know, and everyone claims the success. But I've always been probably to a fault. It's always less. It's never about me, I'm always about, it's about the other person. It's interesting,
Wendy
like, this just totally ties back to like, including yourself in your own compassion and care before because then like it is mitigated, like you totally take care of yourself. So you don't rely on external stuff like your clients and patients to do it for you. That's huge. It is huge. It's painful, and it's so freeing at the same time, because it's actually something you can work with. Right?
Carl
Absolutely. It's an amazing, this, I love just this whole thing. All the businesses is just so great. It's so great. Because you know, there's another thing that I always thought about, it's a bit maybe a bit controversial, but you know, not everyone is really cut out for this type of work. And then again, there's a lot of people who want to help and should help and, but you can help in a lot of ways, but not everyone is cut out to do this, like professionally. I don't want to sound exclusionary or put myself up there.
And because I don't even know if I'm capable. To be honest, the jury's still out if I'm even capable of doing this job. But I'm here still, for better or for worse. That's part of that acknowledgement pieces, you know, is this something that I'm really passionate about and why and how does this serve?
How does this you know, serve me if I'm going to commit myself to this job because when we do this, I I put that again, it's such a sacred place for me when you're in a position to be invited into someone's life and for them to say, Wendy, I'm going through this helped me.
That's like huge and not to be taken lightly. And so what if we burden that relationship with anything other than all of our being to serve that client. And if it has anything to do with us in there, it's just not fair. Because that's not what they signed up for. It takes a while it took a while, for me at least, to understand what that meant.
Wendy
This is still like the human learning piece. Right? Like, this is not a, you know, this is just where we are on the path. And if like, someone who's listening is like, oh my gosh, I'm totally, you know, doing it wrong. Or I'm this that, no, you're learning, you're learning you're learning. This is only going to add value to your experience and your client experience.
Absolutely. 100 100 Oh, my gosh, Carl, no wonder you're so good at what you do. Good at what you do? Oh, my gosh, I'm so glad or coming in for a little bit of a landing. And but and is there anything you'd like to add or talk about that we haven't yet that you feel like people really should know about compassion fatigue, or burnout?
Carl
Probabily the biggest thing I would say is, is to if you're in this field, and you love what you do, or even maybe if you're in this field, and you're questioning, if you love what you do or not. Talk to somebody, find a teammate, and have some just casual, informal conversations about your and really connect yourself with other people who are doing what you do.
Because it's very hard to find, especially if you're in the helping profession, like a counselor, or social worker or a duck. It's hard to talk to a baker, necessarily about what you do. You both may have burnout, but their Baker and they got Baker burnout, and we've got social worker burnout, they're two different animals. They're cousins, but they're not the same. And so reach out, don't do it alone. Because just because you may feel like like I did, like maybe I'm not cut out for this, if it wasn't for my support systems that I found and they resonated with.
And I'm a very nice, maybe can tell him that I like to talk a lot to people. So that that was one of the things that helped me grow, and learn and feel supported. Throughout my journey and how I mitigated burnout. So talk to me, talk to somebody, talk to people. You know, your agency probably has an EAP, you can, you know, there's so many different things, and we can the HR and all that kind of stuff. But whatever you decide, just reach out and connect yourself with others. That's the number one thing.
Wendy
That's amazing well, and I'd like to offer that it takes something to reach out as well. Because if you're experiencing burnout, or compassion fatigue, probably the last thing you want to do is reach out and be vulnerable. So like, I would like to acknowledge that it is important, and it may not be something you really want to do or you find resistance in would that be true?
Carl
Absolutely. Again, that's part of it. We're not We're not wired or we have, we don't allow ourselves the grace to, or the kindness to be vulnerable. But yet, we might expect it or wanted out of our clients and we can but we have to bring it back and model it to ourselves and to be kind to give ourselves grace and to allow ourselves to, to ask for help and to be vulnerable. Just know that in the world and the world out there. Look me up. I'm here, I get you, I get you. So even if you want to give me a call or send me a message, and you just want to dump about it. And you know, I think I can say that I understand. So you're not alone out there. But you're right. It's it takes time when you're ready. Just know that you're not alone. And there are resources out there that you can tap into which one is going to work for you. You never know. It could be a priest rabbi, it could be a counselor could be your friend. You never know. It could be Carl. It could definitely be me. Wink wink.
Wendy
It could be Carl.
Carl
It could definitely be me. Wink wink. It could be Wendy.
Wendy
Gosh, if you would like to connect with Carl, please let me know because I will totally high-five you 100 times. I get so much out of our conversation with Carl and I'm so glad that you joined us and spent some time. Thank you for your generosity and your time and in your experience. Carl everybody.
Carl
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you clap, clap, clap, clap.
Wendy
Okay, that's it for this episode. Come back again.
Hi, it's Wendy. Thank you so much for listening. If something resonated or stuck out or sort of hummed with you in this episode and you want to either talk more about it, or have me talk more about it, let's schedule a connection call. It could be that you are ready to learn how to release emotional pain? That sounds great. It's great to do and it's great on the other side, regardless, you're invited. So if you think it's time for a free 30 minute connection call, I would love to have that with you.
Go to Wendy@hearthealingfromloss.com to email and schedule or you can text or call 206-498-8025 and schedule it that way. I would love to talk with you, and I would love to listen to you too. Thank you, and thanks for coming back for the next episode too.
You are listening to the Heart Healing From Loss podcast with Wendy Sloneker. This is episode 38.
Heck yes, it is.
Hi, everybody, I want to introduce you to Carl Arrogante. He's a coach of first responders and social workers and those of the helping professions who work in an important role with other people, often an emotional role with other people.
His expertise includes burnout or compassion fatigue. And so I really am excited to introduce you to him and to him to you. And I'm delighted about this entire conversation. Thanks for being here. Thanks for listening. Here we go.
Hi, everybody, and welcome. I'm delighted, Carl Arrogante say that you are here. Right here right now. Welcome.
Carl Arrogante
Thank you. I'm happy to be here.
Wendy
Amazing. Amazing. Hey, everybody, I wanted to bring Carl on because one, he's a burnout specialist coach, but also his background in history, like, I really want to give you a taste of his story because it's rich. And it's excellent. And so Carl, we actually have a little bit of a parallel in some of our work together, as we were getting to know each other, I haven’t known you for long.
But I feel like I've known you for a long, long time. And so we have some things in common. I used to work as a behavioral counselor for a group home. And it was largely for foster kids. I worked with the teenage girl's house, predominantly.
And Carl, you had knowledge of this organization, which was shocking to me; not everybody knew about it. But you did. So tell me a little bit about you and your initial work around child welfare, agency work, and things like this just to get started.
Carl
Well, I found myself in child welfare, kind of by accident, but not really by accident. So my background is primarily in substance abuse treatment and prevention. So I've worked as a substance abuse counselor for many years, longer than I care to remember or to disclose. How about that? But I'm originally from the East Coast, Miami, and so when we moved here about 10 years ago, I worked for the juvenile rehabilitation, what used to be called JRA, and DCYF.
I don't even know what they're called now, but part of the Children's Administration. So I worked in JRA as a substance as residential counselor in their substance abuse treatment program. And I loved it, fantastic work. I had a good time there. Everyone, everything was great. But you know, you get through those periods in your career when sometimes you just want to change, look at new opportunities, this that and the other thing.
So I sought after, for no particular reason not because I was dissatisfied with my job. I enjoyed my job, but I was looking to see what else was out there. I'm an Aquarian, so my attention span tends to be pretty cyclical.
I saw an opportunity to work in child welfare for the department of children, youth and families, working primarily with child investigations, Child and Family Welfare Services and dependency. So I said, that sounds like an interesting kind of an area. I explored it and asked around.
You know you do all of the due diligence. It's especially the fact that my office would have been five minutes from my house. So lifestyle bonus, I was like, okay, as opposed to you know, so anyway, long story longer. I made some connections, and I found my way over to Child and Family Welfare Services and found that although I wasn't primarily doing substance abuse, you know, focused work.
I found that my history and my background in substance abuse really lent itself to the mission of that particular position, which was what I wanted. I wanted to sort of, you know, you want to just try different things. I found it to be rejuvenating and energizing.
It was great to be there up until I left that recently. But one of the first clients that I had was a former resident of your facility, and no one knows about this facility anymore. It was quite the place before, but it is no longer operating. So, when you mentioned that the first time we met, I was like, okay, so this person's the real deal. She's been there and that.
So it was instantly one of the many things that connected me to you.
Wendy
Oh, my gosh, and can you remember back? I'm so delighted by just how we got to meet together. But can you remember sort of back when you were exploring child welfare? And that being a new opportunity? What was it about the work? I mean, I get the five-minute commute and lifestyle change? And was it like the expansion of a new sort of customer base or service care? What was it about that drew you in because it does not draw everybody? Carl?
Carl
No. Well, I have a master's in marriage and family therapy. So I'm rooted in my education. My passion is always in family systems. And so even though I was working within, in substance abuse, for example, I always knew one of my foundations of how I look at the world and how I interact with my clients is always through a family systems perspective.
So when I saw the opportunity, once again, to get reconnected with families, working with families, and different sort of iterations of what a family looks like, and even foster families, you know, that was like, Okay, this is where I want to go. And then when I finally met the team, I met my then supervisor, who was also very, very rooted in that sort of systemic alignment, as far as how they make sense of the world. That's what really drew me to it.
So it was really more of a coming back home to it, rather than finding necessarily something new, because it was all about family. When I saw Child and Family, I thought, let me check that out.
Wendy Sloneker
For you, amazing. Yeah. Thank you. Well, and it's like, it's true when they say, you know, I felt called.
Carl
I did and it took me, which is the nature of this work as well. I walked into it thinking I had a skill set, I walked into it thinking, Okay, this is going to be, you know, not more of the same, but I'm going to know. I'm going to be able to feel this, and it's going to be a piece of cake.
I learned very, very quickly that working in child welfare is a completely different animal entirely. And so very much, even though I did have skills, I did have a history, I very much was learning, you know. From day one, from other more veteran social workers and supervisors. And so I was just as much a student as I was a team, you know, a contributor to the team.
So that was challenging, but at the same time, again, energizing and exciting because I was learning new ways and new systems to interact with and interface with and again, it's just satisfying that systems part of my brain that I that I love.
Wendy
Plus the Aquarian who's like, ready for something a little bit new.
Carl
Always. And then working in child welfare, it’s something new every day. Your know from where you used to work. Every shift might be different.
Wendy
Yeah, what is today? This is today. Right? And so when it comes to similar people who are experiencing seasons of grief, it's like, okay, what kind of day am I walking into here? What kind of day? Sometimes it's really heavy, and sometimes it's a little lighter than we expect when it comes to seasons of grief and loss or just hard feelings. Yeah. Speaking of which, let's talk about burnout.
Wendy
Let's go, Carl! Everybody, you ready? We're taking you with us. All right. So when did burnout become an area of interest? And was that another kind of calling for you?
Carl
Let's talk about it. So burnout was an area of interest that started when I was in grad school—being a child of helping professionals. My dad was a doctor and OB-GYN, and my mom was a registered dietician. And so seeing and then being surrounded by family and friends. I've always had the good fortune of being around helping folks and helping professionals. And so I've always had an affinity towards them and why they do what they do.
You know, through school, there was this idea of burnout which was starting to come up as something, trends that were being found, especially amongst doctors, first responders, and police officers. And back then, again, many hundreds of years ago, when I was in school, it wasn't as prominent as it is today. But it did capture me because I know the effects. I've seen it, you know, how hard my dad was working. And my mom and my aunt, who's a nurse. Hearing the stories and I'm like, Oh, my gosh, why'd you do that? I don't get this. So that's what started my interest. And then I’ve just sort of been stuck with me ever since.
And then, when I actually began working in the field myself, I started to see it firsthand and experience it firsthand. But at the same time, the interesting thing about people, especially in the helping professions, like therapists, social workers, etc. We have an interesting relationship with burnout, which I find fascinating. You know, for example, if you get a bunch of social workers or therapists together, it's like four o'clock in the afternoon, it's almost time to say, “Hey, let's go hit a happy hour.”
They say, “Okay, I'm in”, “are you in, Joe?” “ Yeah, I'm in go get Wendy.”
But then somebody always inevitably says, “Okay, let's go, but we're not going to talk about work.” “Okay, deal.”
So you meet at 5:30, and you're all ordering your first round of drinks at 5:30. At 5:05. We're all talking about work. You know, and it's because we love our work. We are people who are called to this job. We feel like we're born to do it.
But it takes its toll on us. We pay a severe toll. And so I'm always fascinated with the dance that we have with burnout, where some of us just throw ourselves and martyr ourselves on the altar of burnout. But we still keep on going, you still keep doing it.
And that's where as I progressed in my job career and became a supervisor, eventually mentor, and started to realize, Wow, I'm losing a lot of really, really good folks. People who are really good at what they do, but it's taking its toll, and they're not lasting, the pace that they're going, they're not sustainable. So that's how I really started sinking my teeth into and seeing what I can do to help mitigate these things?
Wendy
Right, thank you. And I'm wondering if, because in my experience, I've experienced some forms of burnout. And I'm wondering, what I noticed about my own experiences, I had a lot to do with my own burnout. Because I would push, I would drive, I would hustle, I would shoehorn myself into more hours. More and more and more, as though I was limitless.
Yes, and I'm not. I'm a human being who has some limits. And so I'm wondering if that's something that you also notice, because not only is there like an organization with an organizational sort of demand or culture and sort of tone setting, but there's also us each personally who can contribute.
Were you finding that it was contributing both from the organizational and cultural standpoint, but also from each individual?
Carl
Absolutely. And that's what I think is the most interesting part of the burnout discussion, because, yes, there is, of course, the sort of organizational, systemic, bureaucratic, sort of potential causes that can contribute to ultimately burnout.
That's a conversation that we could have, but I'm most interested in the conversation that you're talking about. What is it about the individual that either predisposes them or suddenly they find themselves experiencing compassion fatigue, specifically, or burnout? I love that conversation.
So to start, I don't know where you want to begin, but it starts with, Yes, I think helping professionals, especially counselors, therapists, social workers. That's the term I used, helping professionals. Those are who I'm talking about. They signed up for it its a true calling.
You ask most people, so why? Why are you here? What made you get into child welfare or what got you into working in substance abuse? They'll say, Well, I just want to help. And that's a beautiful thing, a beautiful concept. But very rarely are people prepared, definitely aren’t being prepared for it in school. There are some occupational hazards to that desire to help, especially when that desire isn't always reciprocated or wanted. But then that's where the real work comes into play.
And I don't think folks are prepared for that contradiction. Not in school, definitely not in school. I think that that's where it starts. I used to do a mentoring group with master's level students, where we tried to bridge that gap between the educational experience and then real-life experience and sort of prepare them for having conversations.
So you're going to go into this situation with all of these skills and all of the exuberance of wanting to help. But probably eight out of the 10 people that you're going to see really don't want your help, or they're going to fake it as if they want your help. They need your help. Right. But their circumstances may make it presentable. So they're either there because the court, especially in substance abuse, because the court sent them there, because their family, maybe I'll give them an ultimatum. So all of their motivations for change are generally external, and they're not internal.
If you're motivated by external change, it'll get you somewhere, but is it going to really have the longevity of if you wanted that change? And so, I’ve encountered a lot of that duality, that contradiction starts, the burnout starts that would ultimately end up in compassion fatigue and burnout, because, well, I don't know, I did everything and they still relapsed.
You know, I worked with him all day long. And I did this, that and the other thing, and I invested so much time, but yet, there was an undesired result.
Wendy
It can be interpreted as, you know, ineffective. It can be interpreted as but it doesn't have to be this, it is totally optional. But we don't know that as young people, we're just starting out in the field.
Carl
And it gets interpreted as I'm ineffective. I know, when I first started experiencing burnout, that was the hallmark of my compassion fatigue, was I started questioning my viability and my ability to do the job I had with my first placements. I was under a supervisor, same was Joe.
And he had seemed to have this unending well of energy. He was on top of, at least from what I could see, on top of his paperwork, he ran a team, he was there all the time, he was there early, he was there late, he was doing all of the things to run this amazing facility. And so I really looked up to him as a standard of what it takes to make it in this gig. You know, unrealistically high standards, but again, through my eyes at the time, this is the standard I sang.
So then when I was unable to keep up, or I was unable to get results that were you know, that met my standards. The first place I went was to internalize my inability. Am I even cut out for this? Maybe I should have been a welder.
I think being a welder would have been better because at least I'm not going to hurt anybody, you know. Then you start to internalize those messages. And in those things start to have gravity and weight throw on top of the workload and the stuff that contributes to the burnout part, the profession, the environment of the job, it was only a matter of time before I hit the wall and crashed and burned.
It starts with that. And if I look back at one of the things I learned was, you know, having a acknowledging and knowing what, what the limitations are, I don't know I hate saying the limits when it comes to professional personal development because there really are no limits.
Right? But you know, what do you have control over and what don't you? What is the boundary? You really can't change anybody unless they want to change, you know, and at whatever level they want. And their motivation will only take but being able to be okay with that and not having to save everybody, especially for young, new people. You want to go in there and save everyone.
Wendy
Well, and there's a lot of talk in our social culture about making it happen or making an impact or yes, living your best life, and it's a painful sentiment when you're faced with having to create and set boundaries for yourself. I was really mad when I had needs that were not being met. I had to contain what it was, I could do, you know, out there and be okay with no matter what happened externally. Here's how I can show up, regardless of anything else that is going to happen or not happen.
Carl
Ever since I was a kid, I always struggled with this idea that I was missing out on stuff. I had an amazing childhood. But the thing about me is that I always felt like that, ever since I could remember. I always felt like what was going on over there. So I always wanted to be available, and accessible so that I wouldn't miss out on anything.
And so I love my work, I loved working within the field, I loved it, you know, and I still love it. So I was more than happy to sacrifice my time, because, okay, well, I'm working, you know, from eight to five, okay, I'm off at five. Let me just check my emails at seven. Oh, my God, there's any emergency oh no. I lived like 10 minutes away from the campus. So I could easily go over there. Hey, let me just check that. You know, I saw the email.
That's my client, let me know what not working, you know. And of course, everybody else is high-performing, task-oriented individual. So everyone sort of couches it in terms of we're all family. We're all dedicated. But that erodes when you forsake those boundaries, and it did for me eventually caught up. When I was, like you said, taking on more shifts working overtime.
I wasn't forced as like, well, you know, I'm supposed to be off at five, why isn't this person supporting my work? My relief here? Oh, don't worry about it. Okay. Okay. I get a text, hey, I'm going to be 30 minutes late. Is that okay? I should have said, well, actually, it's not okay. But no problem come in, whenever and of course, they would come in whenever.
Again, it's not their problem. It's me just being too open and too loose. Because I just wanted to do good. I just wanted to be helpful. Hindsight is 2020, I'm sure I probably would have had more longevity if I had just had some basic boundaries and limits.
Wendy
Right? Well, that is something that, you know, is so personal, right, like having that bridge conversation between school and learning and then into the actual field. We're not really taught about specific self-care, we're not really taught about learning our own boundaries.
Certainly not in public school, it was not there, I'll just say that. It was not there. But this is what we eventually learn. And it's hard, because there's also this sort of thought error, if you will, that's pervasive thinking that more time will be more valuable,
Carl
Right, and more and more rewarded, you know, so I find if I'm thinking about as well, you know, I wanted to do good, because I wanted to good by my supervisor, I really wanted this person. And I've always had this very, very strong mentors, I've been fortunate in every single one of my placements. I've had amazing mentors.
And that was very much a motivator for me. But it was also a contributor to my willingness to sacrifice what I needed, in order to make them happy, or to meet their deadlines or to meet their deliverables, whatever you could be it. So when I became a supervisor, I tried to remind myself of that, we as much as we'd like to say there aren't hierarchies. And you know, there are, there are whether you mean them to be or not.
And it really takes a conscious effort to, to normalize and to have everyone speaking on the same level. Burnout isn't one of the best places to do that and the most difficult places to do that. But yeah, we impose those sorts of standards on ourselves, for whatever reasons, and one of the first things I do when I talk about burnout with my, you know, clients is, what are those?
What are those? What are those standards and ideals that you're trying to live up to? What is the core? What is your mission? You know, and then a lot of times, if it's like, I just want to help people, that's when I go, okay? I've been down this road before, because unless we do some things to prepare, that's not going to be a long career, or it's going to be a very painful one, you know, and then ultimately, then someone gets hurt, or could potentially get hurt.
And we don't want that. We all just want to do no harm. But it starts with not doing harm to ourselves. Yeah, let's count ourselves.
Carl
Hashtag do no harm to myself.
Wendy
Yeah. I'm gonna count me in. For sure. So I'll kind of want to touch back on something you said a little bit earlier. And I'd like to pose it in the form of you mentioned occupational hazards of the job.
Carl
I said that, that sounds smart.
Wendy
I know it was it sounded great. Like let's revisit. So occupational hazards of, you know, going into a caring role, or a service role that we've been talking about this entire episode from a space of I just want to help.
What would you like count as things to watch out for that could be occupational hazards? We've mentioned boundaries. We've mentioned knowing a little bit about our own limits. What else would be there that you might advise as someone who's a specialist in burnout, but also knowing all of this experience?
Carl
Oh, well, compassion fatigue is the big umbrella, right? That is, the big hazard is compassion fatigue is real. And no matter how much you care for your job, no matter your vocation, no matter how much you care for your patients, compassion fatigue is like a wolf just waiting to happen.
And it starts and I think it starts with rather innocuous ways, you know, it might be just, you know, just feeling tired or having low energy, or, you know, these are all bred little stepping stones that will lead ultimately to compassion fatigue, and burnout, you know. So, from the beginning, understanding, having a good balance, be acknowledging that it's real.
That's the first one, acknowledging that compassion fatigue is a risk, and that, you know, no one's immune to it. You know, even that supervisor that you respect and admire, that's been in the industry for three decades, they get it, okay, they're just dealing with it in a different kind of way. So acknowledging that it's real, but the next thing is having that balance of because we oftentimes we tip the scales towards imbalance towards the work and not towards ourselves. That's that self care continuum, right.
So, you know, I don't, I was planning on going home and watching the next episode of The Walking Dead, but you know, what, this is more important, I need to work with this person is more important. Yes. But no. And being able to enforce those boundaries, and that balance is, ebbs and flows, depending on the day.
Wendy
Well, and the state of the erosion, as you mentioned.
Carl
The eroding of your self worth. That's all. That's the, that's what all of the sacrifices, you know of your time. That's what has that eroding effect on your, on yourself. So if I answered your questions, there's so much more. Yeah. But that's those are some of the hazards, you know, and of course, there's lots of signs.
But you know, again, when you start not feeling the joy or that excitement, you know, one of the things that's a big occupational hazard is I just want to help but eventually I don't want to help anymore because no one seems to. And so feeling a little bit jaded, feeling a little bit like this is a job because at the end of the day, it is a job. And so when you're helping just for the sake of helping, it usually feels good all around.
Like, if you're helping your neighbor, take out the garbage, or you're helping your neighbor through a hard time that's, that feels pretty good and is oftentimes reciprocated with a thank you, or reciprocated with a box of some cookies, or a hug or something.
When you've taken this on as a job or as an as a profession. You don't always have that luxury of reciprocation, of where someone is going to say thank you, even though they might be thinking, thank you. But they might be saying a FU.
Wendy
Right, it may take a while before the thanking comes in.
Carl
It may take a while. Yeah, I found that I learned this only a matter of time. Some of my most difficult clients are my most grateful ones. They're the ones who reach out to me later on and say, Man, I was really a pain in the butt.
But thank you, because I may have failed out of the program. But I'm still done this, that and the other thing. But again, you can't rely on that. So as a professional, you have to accept the fact that that reciprocity of validation, external validate, you know, the external thanks, and is generally not going to happen, which is why you need to find it amongst your peers, you need to find it, you have to find other sources of validation.
So that's another big occupational hazard is there's so many hazards.
Wendy
Well, and cultivating that inside yourself. Like that's also something that we can learn, like, Oh, I'm going to like take credit for that thing that I did. Like I put sunscreen on today, which I don't often do that but I was going outside and I was like, Okay, this super pasty face is getting some protection. And so, like, I felt kind of like okay, like I feel proud about that. That is something that I don't normally do. That's something I don't do usually offer myself to take care of myself in that way.
Carl
No, they don't and and I think again also people who've chosen this profession generally don't want to take on that. They don't normally do that. Their self care. Oh my goodness. Isn't that's my dog barking. Can you hear of it?
Wendy
Yeah,what's their name?
Carl
Her name is Pocky. We're good. Let's keep going.
Wendy
We're good. Let's keep going.
Carl
Are you sure? Okay, so so. So most people who are in this profession, that's not the first thing that they do is take care of themselves, because they're very much altruistic and extra, they're taking care of others, or natural tech is, especially the very good ones.
Oh, my God. But that is a skill that has to be, you have to remember, you have to be remembered to do that, you know, like, and so are reminded to do that, sorry. So when I came to a position of where I had a team underneath me, or I was mentoring, folks, was exactly that.
Celebrating, giving accolades, giving achievements going with the strengths as opposed to the weaknesses, and because that is the stuff that keeps the machine going.
Wendy
It's really good fuel. We need it as humans.
Carl
Yeah. But we don't give it to ourselves enough, especially helping professionals. So that's, that's one of the hazards again, is this forgetting to take care of yourself or straight up resisting or resisting? Yeah, or thinking that we're not worthy, or whatever.
That's another hazard is this job is not your therapy. Helping profession is not, it's helping others, not necessarily helping yourself, it can have a curative effect, it can make you feel good. But if you're looking for that validation for yourself through your job, it's probably a bad idea. And it's probably happens more often than not. I've worked with a lot of folks who've had exactly that, well, it just makes me feel good.
And, or I've this, history of this, that and the other and I just want to sort of help. And it's really it's like, okay, so it's about you. Yeah, and that's kind of backwards, and very, very scary and risky, because those people don't, they usually don't last.
Wendy
Beacuase if I can just hurl myself and throw myself at a problem, then like, I'm gonna feel great. I'm also going to be able to ignore myself.
Carl
Yeah, but then again, it's I, I , I, me, me, me. Totally, but if you're a professional, it's about your clients, it's about your patients. And those are, that's what your primary goal should be.
Wendy
Right. And that's, that's probably better for avoiding burnout and compassion fatigue as well.
Carl
It does mitigate it. Because if again, if you understand that your self-worth isn't dependent on the progress or outcomes of your clients, it's a little bit easier to get through the day. Not only that, it's also easier to formulate strategies and interventions because then you're not so Oh, I'm just got it, do they got to do this.
But if they're not, if it's not good, if the intervention isn't clicking, then just move on to the next one. And you have that ability, like a carpenter with tools or like a chef with lots of ingredients? Well, you know, maybe salt isn't what I need, maybe I need pepper, so let's go with more pepper.
There isn't a lot of attachment. So there's a detachedness to your connection. So it's a simultaneity. So you're connecting, but you're also have a level of detachment so that you can see it as a, quote, unquote, through a professional lens, not just merely as one human being trying to help another.
Wendy
Right? Well, and this is where it gets into, like, we could talk for another six hours about, like, Hey, this is this is where we hand people, like we don't try to take the their experience from them. Like they're wholly capable of utilizing these resources.
Here they are, as well as the dignity of their experience, and their results and everything that goes with it. Like, including the wins, like that's on them. Like, this is just the tools. Here's the tools.
Carl
Yep. And you're there as a sort of guide. I always saw myself in my relationships with my clients as they're at the wheel, and I'm riding shotgun. I'm not even backseat driving, because I hate backseat drivers. Right? But I've been to these places I've been to this place before.
So I can say you could take a right well, I want to take a left, but we could take a left, but it might take us a little bit longer. But yeah, let's go left. But you know, or there are hazards down that road. And I don't think it would be a good idea to go down that road. I might suggest this path, and then they'll choose the path, you know, but it's really their ride and I'm in conjunction to that ride.
And I've learned to conceptualize my helping relationship in that way to preserve my own, like, again, to mitigate my burnout, where I'm just like, where I'm not feeling so I don't want it to sound like I'm not attached to my clients, I'm very much attached to them, but I have the boundary where it belongs so that I can keep doing what I do, because I won't burn myself out.
Wendy
Right, you know, well, and then like, they're not ever doing anything wrong, because it's their right anyway,
Carl
it's their ride, it's their ride. It’s Good.
Wendy
You know, sometimes judgment, I think can get in on helping professions. If only they would this and if only they would that, but you know what they're not, they're people who were doing their own thing. That's not,
Carl
It's not ours. And then what happens, which is another pitfall, or another potential hazard of burnout is this idea of when you depersonalized, or when you think, were the sick were the failure, or the if a if a if your, if your client or patient or whatever you want to call it isn't reaching their goals, or is not really clicking with you, then we blame them?
Well, they're resistant, or they're not doing the work, or they're not showing up or they're not listening? The hard, the hard reality is no, you're not, you know, it's you, it's you that the helping professional, you're doing something wrong, that's probably taking them triggering, or whatever you want to call it, that's influencing that resistance, you know, otherwise, it would be.
So that's a hard thing to face to that, Oh, my God, that's when you get well, I have a degree in this or I've been doing that as like, doesn't really count for much. If your clients aren't really down with you. So
Wendy
And then like, there are some freedom in that too. On the other side, once the defensiveness kind of wears off, because then it's like, okay, well, what do we need to do to achieve this result? Do I need to present it in a different way? What can I do and so that's totally optional, to like, go for a different solution from a different angle.
Like, it's kind of like trying to get to the ice cream store that has like, you know, it's on one certain block, and there's like, 16 ways to get their ice cream motivated.
Carl
But that that comes with you really sitting there and being there present for your client. It's not about you, you know, and your ability to make those to have that discernment and put yourself in a position of well, how can I optimize my clients experience and respect their that it's about their experience, it's not about how much you know, it's not a competition, you're not trying to save anybody you're not trying to.
And that is the, again, one of the hardest discussions and one of the hardest pills to swallow, when a person is sort of going through the burnout are going through the stages of compassion fatigue, one of those earliest signs are, you know, the blaming, well, it's them. It's them, or it's the agency. And the reason why I'm not getting results is because of everything else, except for maybe it's you as maybe a little bit a little bit as you very hard pill to swallow.
Wendy
0000 4% with you,
Carl
But they'll claim every success, right? It's like, oh, well, look what I did look at the client, I took them, you know, and everyone claims the success. But I've always been probably to a fault. It's always less. It's never about me, I'm always about, it's about the other person. It's interesting,
Wendy
like, this just totally ties back to like, including yourself in your own compassion and care before because then like it is mitigated, like you totally take care of yourself. So you don't rely on external stuff like your clients and patients to do it for you. That's huge. It is huge. It's painful, and it's so freeing at the same time, because it's actually something you can work with. Right?
Carl
Absolutely. It's an amazing, this, I love just this whole thing. All the businesses is just so great. It's so great. Because you know, there's another thing that I always thought about, it's a bit maybe a bit controversial, but you know, not everyone is really cut out for this type of work. And then again, there's a lot of people who want to help and should help and, but you can help in a lot of ways, but not everyone is cut out to do this, like professionally. I don't want to sound exclusionary or put myself up there.
And because I don't even know if I'm capable. To be honest, the jury's still out if I'm even capable of doing this job. But I'm here still, for better or for worse. That's part of that acknowledgement pieces, you know, is this something that I'm really passionate about and why and how does this serve?
How does this you know, serve me if I'm going to commit myself to this job because when we do this, I I put that again, it's such a sacred place for me when you're in a position to be invited into someone's life and for them to say, Wendy, I'm going through this helped me.
That's like huge and not to be taken lightly. And so what if we burden that relationship with anything other than all of our being to serve that client. And if it has anything to do with us in there, it's just not fair. Because that's not what they signed up for. It takes a while it took a while, for me at least, to understand what that meant.
Wendy
This is still like the human learning piece. Right? Like, this is not a, you know, this is just where we are on the path. And if like, someone who's listening is like, oh my gosh, I'm totally, you know, doing it wrong. Or I'm this that, no, you're learning, you're learning you're learning. This is only going to add value to your experience and your client experience.
Absolutely. 100 100 Oh, my gosh, Carl, no wonder you're so good at what you do. Good at what you do? Oh, my gosh, I'm so glad or coming in for a little bit of a landing. And but and is there anything you'd like to add or talk about that we haven't yet that you feel like people really should know about compassion fatigue, or burnout?
Carl
Probabily the biggest thing I would say is, is to if you're in this field, and you love what you do, or even maybe if you're in this field, and you're questioning, if you love what you do or not. Talk to somebody, find a teammate, and have some just casual, informal conversations about your and really connect yourself with other people who are doing what you do.
Because it's very hard to find, especially if you're in the helping profession, like a counselor, or social worker or a duck. It's hard to talk to a baker, necessarily about what you do. You both may have burnout, but their Baker and they got Baker burnout, and we've got social worker burnout, they're two different animals. They're cousins, but they're not the same. And so reach out, don't do it alone. Because just because you may feel like like I did, like maybe I'm not cut out for this, if it wasn't for my support systems that I found and they resonated with.
And I'm a very nice, maybe can tell him that I like to talk a lot to people. So that that was one of the things that helped me grow, and learn and feel supported. Throughout my journey and how I mitigated burnout. So talk to me, talk to somebody, talk to people. You know, your agency probably has an EAP, you can, you know, there's so many different things, and we can the HR and all that kind of stuff. But whatever you decide, just reach out and connect yourself with others. That's the number one thing.
Wendy
That's amazing well, and I'd like to offer that it takes something to reach out as well. Because if you're experiencing burnout, or compassion fatigue, probably the last thing you want to do is reach out and be vulnerable. So like, I would like to acknowledge that it is important, and it may not be something you really want to do or you find resistance in would that be true?
Carl
Absolutely. Again, that's part of it. We're not We're not wired or we have, we don't allow ourselves the grace to, or the kindness to be vulnerable. But yet, we might expect it or wanted out of our clients and we can but we have to bring it back and model it to ourselves and to be kind to give ourselves grace and to allow ourselves to, to ask for help and to be vulnerable. Just know that in the world and the world out there. Look me up. I'm here, I get you, I get you. So even if you want to give me a call or send me a message, and you just want to dump about it. And you know, I think I can say that I understand. So you're not alone out there. But you're right. It's it takes time when you're ready. Just know that you're not alone. And there are resources out there that you can tap into which one is going to work for you. You never know. It could be a priest rabbi, it could be a counselor could be your friend. You never know. It could be Carl. It could definitely be me. Wink wink.
Wendy
It could be Carl.
Carl
It could definitely be me. Wink wink. It could be Wendy.
Wendy
Gosh, if you would like to connect with Carl, please let me know because I will totally high-five you 100 times. I get so much out of our conversation with Carl and I'm so glad that you joined us and spent some time. Thank you for your generosity and your time and in your experience. Carl everybody.
Carl
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you clap, clap, clap, clap.
Wendy
Okay, that's it for this episode. Come back again.
Hi, it's Wendy. Thank you so much for listening. If something resonated or stuck out or sort of hummed with you in this episode and you want to either talk more about it, or have me talk more about it, let's schedule a connection call. It could be that you are ready to learn how to release emotional pain? That sounds great. It's great to do and it's great on the other side, regardless, you're invited. So if you think it's time for a free 30 minute connection call, I would love to have that with you.
Go to Wendy@hearthealingfromloss.com to email and schedule or you can text or call 206-498-8025 and schedule it that way. I would love to talk with you, and I would love to listen to you too. Thank you, and thanks for coming back for the next episode too.