Episode 29: Dementia, Grief, and Quality of Life
Welcome back to the Heart Healing from Loss podcast!
In this episode, Wendy interviews three healthcare pros from the Creative Dementia Collective. People living with dementia, their families, friends, care sharers, and care givers face a great many challenges ensuring everyone touched by dementia receive the care they need. Quality of Life How do you ensure these people have good quality of life, with appropriate activity, love, and respect, as well as care - and that the stigma surrounding dementia is finally resigned to the past? The Creative Dementia Collective of Kaylee Allen, Erin Staadecker, Jael Weinberg, and super pup Rosie is on a mission to do all of the above, using art and music, pet and talk therapies, all customized for the individual living with dementia. |
You are Invited:
Have a listen, then check them out at their website, CreativeDementiaCollective.com. Be sure you're also taking care of yourself in times of grief and change, and schedule a consult with Wendy at HeartHealingFromLoss.com.
Have a listen, then check them out at their website, CreativeDementiaCollective.com. Be sure you're also taking care of yourself in times of grief and change, and schedule a consult with Wendy at HeartHealingFromLoss.com.
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Full Episode Transcript
Wendy Sloneker
Hello, and welcome back to the Heart Healing from Loss podcast. This is Wendy Sloneker, you're listening to Episode 29.
This episode is the one where I share an interview that I had with three pretty amazing health care pros from the Creative Dementia Collective. Now more and more as I'm speaking with more and more of you out there, I am hearing how dementia in all its many forms, is coming to touch many of yours lives. So whether you're a care sharer, a care partner, you're somebody living with dementia or navigating your path with dementia. Please listen to these three fantastic humans. Plus me, I would love to just hold this space for more information, a little education from professionals who work with people who were touched by cases of dementia in, in every form, gather a little bit of comfort and wisdom from them.
And thank you for listening. Here we go.
I am delighted to introduce 100% of all of you who are listening to my voice right now to introduce you to the Creative Dementia Collective. Welcome. Welcome. Please, I'd love to have one of you three experts talk about what the collective is. So So I am you know, like because you're the expert. Please, please.
Kaylee Allen
Yeah, absolutely. And thanks for having us. First of all, we're so excited to be here talking to you. So my name is Kaylee, just for your listeners to understand this is the sound of my voice. The Creative Dementia Collective is three of us. And you'll be introduced to Erin and Jael in a moment. But what we do is we strive to smash the stigma for people on the journey with dementia. That means people living with it and also anybody touched by care partners, their whole community around them because, right not it's not just the individual who is living with dementia, it impacts everybody.
We also bring in elements of community support, dementia education, expressive therapies like art and music therapy, pet therapy, and legacy work to help those living with dementia really thrive.
And also maintain those moments of connection and meaning for their peers for their loved ones, all the way from early diagnosis through end of life. So we work both with the care partners, broader community, and also those living with dementia directly.
Wendy
Amazing. Amazing. And you mentioned, there are three of you we've heard a little bit Kaylee, would you tell me a little bit about your participation and strengths in the collective?
Kaylee
Sure, yeah. So I'm a board certified music therapist. And that's the piece that I bring. I also have a sweet, sweet pitbull named Rosemary, and she is a pet therapy certified, and she does the pet therapy stuff. So in music therapy, what I'm basically doing is I'm using elements of music, from lyrics, rhythm, melody, harmony, all that sort of stuff to accomplish non musical goals.
So for somebody living with dementia, those could be goals about connecting to loved ones, maybe a song sparks a memory that allows them to have a moment of connection with somebody. It can also be expressive. I do songwriting with people, that's a really fun way to express it can be nonverbal expression through instrument play, or dancing.
And it can also be a container to process really complex emotions, emotions that are so often beyond language. And when those feelings get too big, so often music can help us put voice to that, maybe I can't put my finger on what I'm feeling but a certain song, if you listen to this song, that'll explain it. And it helps me to, to feel my emotions to process my emotions to express my emotions, and also to put them into a container. So I can have that feeling. And then know that that song is there and I can put it on a shelf and go out through my day and, and function.
So there's a lot of ways that looks like but one of the most important things is that I use client preferred music. So whatever is the most important music to you, that's what's gonna get your neurons firing in your brain. That's what's going to help us make those neural connections in your brain. Right? That's what's going to help us really I have a therapeutic experience. So it's the Grateful Dead. It's the Grateful Dead. Let's go rock on.
Wendy
Let's go. Let there be spinning to it again.
Kaylee
Yes.
Wendy
Yeah, it's so good. Like, I love what you said about, you know, processing your feelings, even if you can't find the words because then it's also safe to feel which many, many people who are in grief and who are touched by dementia, I'm guessing or like, maybe, you know, sometimes afraid of our feelings as well. I know I have been. Oh, my gosh, I would love to hear from the other members of the collective as well. Erin, please, will you introduce yourself?
Erin Staadecker
Hi, thank you so much. My name is Erin Staadecker. And this is the sound of my voice. I am 1/3 of the Creative Dementia Collective. In my role, I am a dementia awareness trainer. So I am trained in Teepa Snow's philosophy, which is called Positive Approach to Care. And I like to bring that dementia awareness piece, mostly to folks who are supporting somebody who's living with dementia.
So if I may, can I insert one little dementia awareness moment that we've already probably heard your listeners might have noticed some of the language that we're using two things, top two most important things probably to know you're going to hear us use the term living with dementia. We believe that the way we speak about dementia is really, really important. It creates the world and the culture around dementia care. So we're mindful about the language that we use. So we say a person living with dementia instead of you know, a demented person or an Alzheimer's patient or something like that something that identifies them as a disease versus a person who's living still living y'all with a disease, and is learning how to navigate the different challenges that come with the disease, but that there are a person first, for that reason we say person living with dementia.
And the second one is dementia itself. What is that, you know, to get that stigma out of the way dementia is not one thing, there's not one type of dementia, it's actually a syndrome, or a collection of symptoms literally caused by damaged brain cells, parts of the brain that are dying. So a lot of people automatically associate Alzheimer's with dementia. Alzheimer's is one type of dementia, the Alzheimer's symptoms lead to the dementia that we see presented in people's behavior in their ability to logic and reason in their communication. It can affect vision, you know, motor skills, safety, awareness, things like that. So it's also not only associated with memory and memory loss, but along with Alzheimer's, there are about 125 different types of dementia. Alzheimer's is just accounts for about like 70 75% of those. So it's kind of the front runner that people are most familiar with.
Wendy
Right. So useful. I didn't know very recently that like there was 100. Well, like I got an abbreviated list, I guess of the different types of dementia that
Erin
Yeah. Yeah. Around. Yeah.
The abbreviated list is you know, Alzheimer's, Frontotemporal dementia, Lewy Body, vascular dementia, you know, and then there's a lot of little other ones, it literally just means that there are parts of your brain that are dying, that it's, yeah, it is a chronic chronic journey. Right. Right. Yeah.
Wendy
Wow, thank you so much. And one more important part of the collective is Jael, please welcome introduce yourself.
Jael Weinberg
Hi, thank you so much. I'm Jael Weinberg, and this is the sound of my voice. It will probably get much more pressured and loud as I get very excited about a topic I'm speaking on. Because that's how I roll and I get very excited about things and like just really, really energetic to talk about my favorite stuff.
And I am a licensed mental health counselor, and I'm a registered art therapist. And what I contribute in the collective is a different branch of creative expression. Kaylee's the music therapist. I'm the art therapist we kind of combined forces in Creative Arts Therapy or expressive therapies as it's sometimes called. But art therapy is a specific discipline.
And it is a combination of psychotherapy and artistic expression or the creative process and using the creative process as a tool in service of healing. What makes art therapy so wonderful for people living with dementia is that it offers similarly to music, a nonlinear form of communication, so can indicating through language takes a whole lot of structure. I think most people can recall back to their school days of like, the kind of groans of the students on grammar day, learning how to structure a sentence and what order things go in. And what's the subject, object, preposition, you know, all that. And organizing language is very difficult to do, as our brains change and kind of shift structure.
And so offering people a method of communication that does not require a temporal organization, right, one thing happens, the next thing happens, it can be communicated all at once, is a really, really helpful tool. And then on top of that, just being able to express feelings is good for our nervous system. There's a lot of research being done kind of on somatic therapies that unless we complete an emotion cycle, right, so we feel a thing our body releases chemicals, and we are having this kind of biological reaction, and then it has to go somewhere do something, right, those chemicals, either we cry, and that activates our parasympathetic nervous system, and then we feel better, or we're angry, and we scream, and that releases the, the energy, and then we feel better.
And so creative arts, therapies, music are anything expressive, helps people kind of complete that emotion cycle. And it's really healthy for our nervous systems. And I also specialize in legacy work, which is helping people tell their stories in a way that honors how they want to be remembered. So legacy work as a way to empower people living with dementia and empower their loved ones to talk about life, talk about the things that were meaningful, preserve elements that hold resonance, or magic or importance or love, or power, right to an individual or to a family, and find a way to preserve and then share that. Because as humans, our deepest, deepest desire, whether we want to admit it or not, is to not feel irrelevant.
We want to know that we were here, and that we mattered, and that people knew that we were here and knew that we mattered and will talk about us, hopefully, when we're gone, and we don't just disappear into the oblivion of the universe. And so kind of on that deeply, deeply human level, right, offering people an end of life or with a chronic illness or terminal illness, a way to preserve their humaneness helps on a, the kind of right now interpersonal level, like we talked about the benefits of creativity, but also on a deeper, deeper existential level of, you know, I'm a human I was here, did I matter? Does anyone care? And you know, our answer is Hell yeah, of course you did.
Wendy
Yes. Oh, my gosh. Meaning like, what, what am I doing here, here with my time here with my life, I love and appreciate so much that there's such focus and energy on like, No, we're talking about life and living and quality of life. And I think this is where sort of like the, A, a journey that is touched by dementia and touched by grief. At the same time, if we talk about grief on this channel, we're talking about the change or halt of a familiar pattern or behavior.
And so change is just part of a dementia journey for a person and their loved ones. So it's, everyone is unique. Everyone is like really individual. And so that means that it's not all going to look like or feel like anybody else's no matter if you have Alzheimer's, which is what 70% of the folks with dementia are experiencing an Alzheimer's experience or an experience of Alzheimer's, if you will. But it's all still different.
And this is the same with grief. So it's really important to just relax about like, Hey, if you're having the experience, you're, you're actually doing it right. If you're having the experience I love Jael when you were talking about, hey, the feelings are here and they get to be expressed and processed. Even in a nonverbal way. It still counts. You're gonna say something, please.
Jael
When you're talking about the unique element of everyone's experience. I think that's something really, really important in grief and in dementia. Because humans hate unpredictability. We like little taste of it as like a like a fun surprise. But we don't like it on a like resonant, interpersonal kind of cosmic level. We hate it.
And so with grief and with dementia, we it's instinctual. It's completely understandable that we want a blueprint. We want to know what's going to happen, right? That's why people are all the Five Stages of Grief Oh, I'm in anger. Now, next steps bargaining, you know, it's like, oh, sorry, but that's not how it works, you're gonna bop around, and you're going to not really know what's happening or what stage you're in and multiple stages at the same time. And that feels scary. Same with dementia, right?
Or, you know, specifically with Alzheimer's, because there's so much research done about it, we love to have some, some map right of this is going to happen, and then this is going to happen, and then you're going to experience this, and then you're going to feel this, but our brains are all unique, and the way that they get impacted by dementia is all unique. And so there is no blueprint. And I think that's an element that makes it really, really scary, both grief and dementia.
Wendy
100%. Well, you know, like, if we're talking about our kind of primal brain from that 1000s of years ago, when we were all trying to, like, survive in a cave, if you will, like, Hey, we're constantly sort of like having this voice in our head that says, We're not safe, and we need to survive and evolve. And this is, like, you know, all all of us here in this room right now. We are sheltered we have beverages, we are enjoying technology, and it's hot, like one of his highest forms, in my opinion. And so, you know, like, this is a connective piece. And so it's part like, it's really a natural thing that we are hearing, hey, how am I gonna do this? I don't know if I can do this.
And we don't, we don't know if we can do it. Well, what I'm gonna say is, we may not know if we can do it, but we don't sure know how to do it. And this goes for I'm guessing caregivers, care partners, loved ones have the person who has dementia, but also, you know, like, the entire family, everybody's identity kind of changes. When someone in a family or in a an organization has dementia, what would you what would you say to that? Kaylee?
Kaylee
I think I think you're absolutely hitting the nail on the head. So just to use a personal example, my dad is living with dementia, he has a traumatic brain injury. So it's a TBI related dementia. And our relationship is not very father daughter. Right. Our relationship is a care partner and Dad, dad with dementia. Right.
So I think what is hard about that, is it's a moving target. Right? Is once I've figured out how Kaylee and dad are as father daughter, that's ripped away. He's he's had a brain injury, he's in recovery. He's changing all the time. What's this look like now? And then now in my 30s, stepping up, as you know, an at home care partner with him? Okay, well, what's that look like?
And knowing that dementia is a progressive disease, meaning it is terminal, it is going to be lifelong. And it is going to end when his life ends, and that I am going to meet many iterations of my dad, and therefore my relationship to him will be ever shifting, my approach that is going to be best suited for success for me and for him, is going to be ever shifting.
But what I what I've been thinking about a lot lately is isn't that everybody isn't that just relationships like the husband I met, when he was my boyfriend at 27 is not who he is at 36 That's were completely different people, I'm not who I was at girlfriend 23. You know, like, he is a new version of himself, my sister when she was a little girl is a very different sister than she is now.
And all of our relationships, go through this evolution, all of our relationships and all of us as individuals go through evolution and change and become new people. And it's, it's the breaking of the mold in my head of here's who I expect you to be and here's the box you've always fit into, and realizing over and over again, that I don't really know who you are, you know who you are. And my expectation of who I need you to be is crumbling. And the less I hold on to that, the better I can adapt and actually meet you who who, for who you are that day for who you are that minute. Right? Because with dementia, it does sometimes change minute for minute.
Wendy
Mm hmm. Right? So I'm hearing being present. And this is like a what can feel like an exhausting job sometimes totally to be present until like Wow. And that's full. That's like 24/7. What? Please allow me to sleep, please. Like, consciousness is something I would like to take a tiny break from I have to take a nap. Right?
Erin, I see you. And I would love to hear more around like awareness and change and feelings that come come up. Just so people feel like if they're experiencing, say symptoms of or as a care partner, like what are some of the things that they may be wandering inside their bodies or wandering inside their minds and hearts? Like, is this normal? And actually happening? Huh?
Erin
Yeah, really, really good question. And, like with everything with dementia, it's so different for each person. And that's something that we that we try to shout from the rooftops, the work we do with people, it's like, you know, the support we provided to this family isn't going to be the same cookie cutter approach that we use with the next one.
So in checking in with yourself about, you know, is this dementia? Is this just normal aging? Or is this not normal aging, but maybe it's not even dementia, like, that's still something that you have to look at, from a really personal place. Because we're all starting from a different baseline, if you will.
So you want to look at, you know, what's different for that person, you know, if if you're somebody who always, you know, always loses their keys and never has things in a proper place, you know, and that's kind of been how you've operated in life, your whole life. As soon as you get older, and you you know, can't find your keys, I'd caution you from jumping to the conclusion, you know, oh, my God, I must have put them in check. You know, that's something you've been doing your whole life, that's not for that person.
You know, however, if you've been somebody who's really, you know, had established routines in your life, you know, you've always been able to, you know, find the, the words, you know, the vocabulary to express yourself, and all of a sudden, you're really unable to successfully find that word. That might be a little clue for you, you know, to get yourself checked out. And again, there might be so many other factors at play, that have absolutely nothing to do with dementia. Right. There could be another mental health issue, a physical health issue, you know, something's going on with medication.
Wendy
Stress, is stress. Yeah, I mean, maybe stress.
Erin
Yeah, totally things that just put strain on our brain that can mimic dementia like symptoms, you know, I know that when I'm stressed, or I haven't even gotten enough sleep, like, I can't find my words, you know, grief, that is something that can mimic dementia like symptoms, your brains not firing at full capacity. So, you know, give yourself some grace out there.
And, you know, I'd say just a couple telltale signs, you know, to keep an eye out is, you know, your, your na unable to think the same as you did before, or to complete tasks or go about your life the same way you could earlier in life, getting started on a task, initiating sequencing, and then completing a task and moving on. That's usually kind of assign like, something's going on. Something's different.
Wendy Sloneker 23:21
Wendy
You know, what comes up, like the thought occurs to me that entering into menopause is also similar in these symptoms, like I My God, like, please. Like, if my experience has been anything it really like everything you said, I was like, Oh, that feels like menopause. So another hormones are yes, hormone enhanced or not. Like, this is what we're going through. Yeah, Kaylee, what were you gonna say?
Kaylee
You know, what else is similar about dementia and menopause we don't talk about so when you're walking through this experience, you're like, Am I crazy? Is this what it's like? And, and there's this whole silent population that absolutely could tell you yes, this is exactly what it's like, yes, we're going through this journey. But there's this social stigma that we don't talk about it. Not at least not, you know, outwardly, maybe a whisper to a close friend in your circle. Those really trusted inner relationships. But as a society as a whole. We're not talking about menopause. We're not talking about dementia.
Wendy
Grief, dementia, menopause leg let's just like and you know, there are more things as well. But this is just sort of like scratching the what are we not talking about? That is impacting us and our quality of life? Wow, we're living. We're still living. Yeah.
Erin
Oh my gosh, definitely one of those things that gets talked about in hushed tones behind closed doors. So we're very open and loud and vocal about them the word
Wendy
Please. Well, can we just continue on for a little bit longer around quality of life because this is still like while we're making meaning. And while these things like the purpose is also to, like, enjoy and experience life. So, I would love to hear from each of you kind of around that topic of quality of life, not only for the person with dementia, but also for the loved ones and care partners, surrounding including potentially, co workers, employees, like it can really ripple out and show how connected we are.
Kaylee, I'd love to start with you, please.
Kaylee
Sure, yeah. So one of the things that that gives us quality of life is connecting to the things we enjoy. And another is feeling useful, and other is having purpose. And those are all things that I think we try to bring to our clients and to help them feel fulfilled in those ways.
We were talking earlier about how our identities and our sense of self grow and change over time, regardless of brain change, and certainly in dementia, but one of the things that also happens is, there's a through line of some of the core things that make us who we are and, and that we kind of hang our identities on.
And one of the painful things about dementia is some of those things that you might have considered really core to your loved one is different, is opposite. But there, there usually are still those small nuggets of a well, that's still the same, you know, I can't I don't recognize my mom at all, but she does still love gardening. Oh, great, let's get our hands dirty, let's put our, our fingers into the dirt, let's find ways that she can do things, she still loves to do find purpose, be useful, all of those things can be done with gardening, right.
And when I see that with music, one of the things that I think is really profound, on the other side for the loved one, to find those things. And to find those connections, is they get to kind of visit there memory of who their loved one used to be through a song.
So if you find that song that really lights them up, that really engages them, and helps them kind of come to life and brighten up, then you as the loved one are looking at your your person and recognizing them. Oh my gosh, I haven't seen dad smile like that in such a long time. Oh, he was just like him all his old self again. Right?
It's that power of taking these creative elements. And and using them to tap into those parts of ourselves that are still there that are always there that are maybe buried behind the haze of symptoms and medications and setting and you know these different things that keep us from thriving. And then you find the right piece, you find the right approach. And you get to kind of have a door into their world.
And you get to share a world for a moment, right. And one of the things that I've said, and it's actually something my mom and I were talking about her dad also has dementia. So my mom and I are on these cool, like parallel journeys together. And she was talking about is it worth it to, you know, take grandpa to do these things and, and, you know, spend all this time because by the time I dropped them off at home, he doesn't remember, I am not always this profound. But I just had a moment where I said, Mom, the memories are for us. The moments are for him. Right?
We're creating moments with him. That's where he's living. He's living in the present. He's living in the moment. You get to take those memories, right? You're not creating memories for grandpa right now. That's not where he is anymore. create those beautiful moments. And then you get to hold those memories. That's your role now, as somebody who gets to take his legacy, take his life, take his memories on into the future and kind of shepherd that you hold those memories now.
Wendy
Mm hmm. So good. So, so good. Thank you. And I imagine like you know, for many of the care partners and caregivers care sharers that I know it is also important for them to reconnect with things that they find connection with and meaning with and usefulness with. Because while there may be a lot that gets learned or taken on often with other members of the household, there's still a need for time to connect with yourself. And you know, and with your person who has dementia, but like those get to be for you, too.
What else Erin, I'd love to hear.
Erin
Yes. To that point. I think the importance of care partners reconnecting with what's important to them goes hand in hand with a lot of people's decision. Do I keep mom or dad at home? Or do I move them into a care community. And that is a conversation that can, like hold that dialectic of like, right? This is for me, like, I know that they're going to end up getting the better care of being in the better environment that they need to be, and I'm going to get the relief. And then on the other hand, I'm gonna have the grief and guilt of like, them being putting mom in a home, you know.
We find that a lot, I don't know if I mentioned before, but I run a memory care here locally, so I'm working a lot with families who are navigating that really complex choice to make for themselves and for their loved one. And then always, you know, just trying to gear it back to a radical act of self care for everybody, you know, being able to recognize when you don't have the wherewithal, you know, whether it's the awareness, or the skills, or just the bandwidth to be able to care for somebody, while you know, also maintaining your own life and your own self care, you know, and, and trusting.
You know, I don't take for granted that people trust me and my team of people to care for their most beloved person in their most vulnerable time. So it's a big leap of faith, family's part, and then being able to come be with them. And like Kaylee said, like to have the moments, right to have those moments that, that for their loved one is, is really just a moment like of connection. But for that family member, that's a memory that they can take home and put that in their, you know, memory, bank and support as they go through their own grief process.
Wendy
So I think that's so amazing, because, you know, like, one thing that we talked about just a few minutes ago was the roles and how roles change. And so when you're considering, like, best possible care for this person, what if like, the role of care partner is not one that is great for you, you don't have to take on a guilt perspective, like the thoughts of guilt, or the thoughts of like, what do we make it mean, when the best possible care is going to come from somebody else? What do we make that mean about us, that's totally a personal, unique experience that we get to go through ourselves. And so you know, if you get to trade in the care partner role in order to be the spouse, or the daughter, or the partner, or the whoever you can be your best possible, you know, role and identity, but this is this is just one thing. So it's like wild, how many facets and how many touch points. This connects with? Yeah, this is blowing my mind this whole conversation.
Jael I would love to hear a little bit more from you. And then final final thoughts coming out?
Jael
Yeah, you know, I think two things that kind of were, like bubbled up for me, as I was listening to Kaylee and Erin talk about, you know, quality of life and self care. And that realm of things, is kind of two separate but intersecting pieces, right.
So on the self care side, from a care partner perspective, we talk a lot about the kind of internal judgment and shame cultivated around not being able to do enough or be enough. And there is a pretty high percentage of people who provide care for women. And women, really, in our culture, specifically, like really struggle to prioritize themselves. And it is seen as a selfless, generous, morally superior way to be to give and give and do and care for, and really give all of our selves in service of another. And there is something beautiful about being able to give a piece of ourselves in service of another, but to give all of ourselves means there is none of us left. And that halts our journey.
And it also then uses up our internal resource to continue care or to care for another or to care for multiple people, right or continue caring. And so, when we talk about self care, it's become such a kind of commodified concept of, you know, buy this Fizzy Bath Bomb and do your self care and it's like, a bubble bath is phenomenal, but it can only do so much existential restoration. I guess it depends on the bath, honestly, but
Wendy
Or bath through my finances at the same time, great. I'll take the bat but a lot of times self care does not feel so. Exactly. Until after.
Jael
Right, right. Exactly. It's a It's really a brave thing to do, to choose to continue nourishing yourself as you're nourishing someone else. And also, that connected me to the kind of second piece around identity. And as a care partner, our identities shift so frequently in life, right, but we still kind of hold on really tightly to particular versions of our identity, right. And so if we have always been seen as the selfless mother, right, or the daughter who has it all together, to radically changed that and start prioritizing ourselves and making different choices than people have known us to historically make.
That is hard people in social systems really struggle when someone who has been a major support piece shifts to prioritize themselves, that's really difficult for systems to tolerate. But it is possible and we help families and communities do that care communities do that, because that's the only sustainable way for it to be oh my
Wendy
Oh my gosh, so grateful. So glad this has been such an amazing first conversation, I'm just throwing it out there. First of several conversations with the Creative Dementia Collective. Thank you each so much for your care and your attention and your gigantic hearts. For this work and your energy for this work. It's a delight to speak with you, all the contact information you could ever need is going to be in them show notes coming out when we drop this episode.
So you definitely have a way to contact the collective and then each of the members individually as desired. I know I follow your Instagram, like religiously, I'll go ahead and say it spiritually religiously, actively. You guys really have it together. So please continue on. And please come back when you come back.
Jael
Yes. Oh, absolutely. Or do you have 70 topics I want to talk about with you when I think yeah, well,
Kaylee
I have like 15 different thoughts right now.
Wendy
Yum, yum, yum. Okay, two more to come. Take good care.
Erin
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Wendy
Hi, it's Wendy. Thank you so much for listening. If something resonated or stuck out or sort of hummed with you in this episode, and you want to either talk more about it, or have me talk more about it, let's schedule a connection call.
It could be that you are ready to learn how to release emotional pain. This sounds great. It's great to do and it's great on the other side, regardless, you're invited.
So if you think it's time for a free 30 minute connection call, I would love to have that with you. Go to [email protected] to email and schedule or you can text or call 206-498-8025 and schedule it that way. I would love to talk with you and I would love to listen to you too.
Thank you and thanks for coming back for the next episode too.
Hello, and welcome back to the Heart Healing from Loss podcast. This is Wendy Sloneker, you're listening to Episode 29.
This episode is the one where I share an interview that I had with three pretty amazing health care pros from the Creative Dementia Collective. Now more and more as I'm speaking with more and more of you out there, I am hearing how dementia in all its many forms, is coming to touch many of yours lives. So whether you're a care sharer, a care partner, you're somebody living with dementia or navigating your path with dementia. Please listen to these three fantastic humans. Plus me, I would love to just hold this space for more information, a little education from professionals who work with people who were touched by cases of dementia in, in every form, gather a little bit of comfort and wisdom from them.
And thank you for listening. Here we go.
I am delighted to introduce 100% of all of you who are listening to my voice right now to introduce you to the Creative Dementia Collective. Welcome. Welcome. Please, I'd love to have one of you three experts talk about what the collective is. So So I am you know, like because you're the expert. Please, please.
Kaylee Allen
Yeah, absolutely. And thanks for having us. First of all, we're so excited to be here talking to you. So my name is Kaylee, just for your listeners to understand this is the sound of my voice. The Creative Dementia Collective is three of us. And you'll be introduced to Erin and Jael in a moment. But what we do is we strive to smash the stigma for people on the journey with dementia. That means people living with it and also anybody touched by care partners, their whole community around them because, right not it's not just the individual who is living with dementia, it impacts everybody.
We also bring in elements of community support, dementia education, expressive therapies like art and music therapy, pet therapy, and legacy work to help those living with dementia really thrive.
And also maintain those moments of connection and meaning for their peers for their loved ones, all the way from early diagnosis through end of life. So we work both with the care partners, broader community, and also those living with dementia directly.
Wendy
Amazing. Amazing. And you mentioned, there are three of you we've heard a little bit Kaylee, would you tell me a little bit about your participation and strengths in the collective?
Kaylee
Sure, yeah. So I'm a board certified music therapist. And that's the piece that I bring. I also have a sweet, sweet pitbull named Rosemary, and she is a pet therapy certified, and she does the pet therapy stuff. So in music therapy, what I'm basically doing is I'm using elements of music, from lyrics, rhythm, melody, harmony, all that sort of stuff to accomplish non musical goals.
So for somebody living with dementia, those could be goals about connecting to loved ones, maybe a song sparks a memory that allows them to have a moment of connection with somebody. It can also be expressive. I do songwriting with people, that's a really fun way to express it can be nonverbal expression through instrument play, or dancing.
And it can also be a container to process really complex emotions, emotions that are so often beyond language. And when those feelings get too big, so often music can help us put voice to that, maybe I can't put my finger on what I'm feeling but a certain song, if you listen to this song, that'll explain it. And it helps me to, to feel my emotions to process my emotions to express my emotions, and also to put them into a container. So I can have that feeling. And then know that that song is there and I can put it on a shelf and go out through my day and, and function.
So there's a lot of ways that looks like but one of the most important things is that I use client preferred music. So whatever is the most important music to you, that's what's gonna get your neurons firing in your brain. That's what's going to help us make those neural connections in your brain. Right? That's what's going to help us really I have a therapeutic experience. So it's the Grateful Dead. It's the Grateful Dead. Let's go rock on.
Wendy
Let's go. Let there be spinning to it again.
Kaylee
Yes.
Wendy
Yeah, it's so good. Like, I love what you said about, you know, processing your feelings, even if you can't find the words because then it's also safe to feel which many, many people who are in grief and who are touched by dementia, I'm guessing or like, maybe, you know, sometimes afraid of our feelings as well. I know I have been. Oh, my gosh, I would love to hear from the other members of the collective as well. Erin, please, will you introduce yourself?
Erin Staadecker
Hi, thank you so much. My name is Erin Staadecker. And this is the sound of my voice. I am 1/3 of the Creative Dementia Collective. In my role, I am a dementia awareness trainer. So I am trained in Teepa Snow's philosophy, which is called Positive Approach to Care. And I like to bring that dementia awareness piece, mostly to folks who are supporting somebody who's living with dementia.
So if I may, can I insert one little dementia awareness moment that we've already probably heard your listeners might have noticed some of the language that we're using two things, top two most important things probably to know you're going to hear us use the term living with dementia. We believe that the way we speak about dementia is really, really important. It creates the world and the culture around dementia care. So we're mindful about the language that we use. So we say a person living with dementia instead of you know, a demented person or an Alzheimer's patient or something like that something that identifies them as a disease versus a person who's living still living y'all with a disease, and is learning how to navigate the different challenges that come with the disease, but that there are a person first, for that reason we say person living with dementia.
And the second one is dementia itself. What is that, you know, to get that stigma out of the way dementia is not one thing, there's not one type of dementia, it's actually a syndrome, or a collection of symptoms literally caused by damaged brain cells, parts of the brain that are dying. So a lot of people automatically associate Alzheimer's with dementia. Alzheimer's is one type of dementia, the Alzheimer's symptoms lead to the dementia that we see presented in people's behavior in their ability to logic and reason in their communication. It can affect vision, you know, motor skills, safety, awareness, things like that. So it's also not only associated with memory and memory loss, but along with Alzheimer's, there are about 125 different types of dementia. Alzheimer's is just accounts for about like 70 75% of those. So it's kind of the front runner that people are most familiar with.
Wendy
Right. So useful. I didn't know very recently that like there was 100. Well, like I got an abbreviated list, I guess of the different types of dementia that
Erin
Yeah. Yeah. Around. Yeah.
The abbreviated list is you know, Alzheimer's, Frontotemporal dementia, Lewy Body, vascular dementia, you know, and then there's a lot of little other ones, it literally just means that there are parts of your brain that are dying, that it's, yeah, it is a chronic chronic journey. Right. Right. Yeah.
Wendy
Wow, thank you so much. And one more important part of the collective is Jael, please welcome introduce yourself.
Jael Weinberg
Hi, thank you so much. I'm Jael Weinberg, and this is the sound of my voice. It will probably get much more pressured and loud as I get very excited about a topic I'm speaking on. Because that's how I roll and I get very excited about things and like just really, really energetic to talk about my favorite stuff.
And I am a licensed mental health counselor, and I'm a registered art therapist. And what I contribute in the collective is a different branch of creative expression. Kaylee's the music therapist. I'm the art therapist we kind of combined forces in Creative Arts Therapy or expressive therapies as it's sometimes called. But art therapy is a specific discipline.
And it is a combination of psychotherapy and artistic expression or the creative process and using the creative process as a tool in service of healing. What makes art therapy so wonderful for people living with dementia is that it offers similarly to music, a nonlinear form of communication, so can indicating through language takes a whole lot of structure. I think most people can recall back to their school days of like, the kind of groans of the students on grammar day, learning how to structure a sentence and what order things go in. And what's the subject, object, preposition, you know, all that. And organizing language is very difficult to do, as our brains change and kind of shift structure.
And so offering people a method of communication that does not require a temporal organization, right, one thing happens, the next thing happens, it can be communicated all at once, is a really, really helpful tool. And then on top of that, just being able to express feelings is good for our nervous system. There's a lot of research being done kind of on somatic therapies that unless we complete an emotion cycle, right, so we feel a thing our body releases chemicals, and we are having this kind of biological reaction, and then it has to go somewhere do something, right, those chemicals, either we cry, and that activates our parasympathetic nervous system, and then we feel better, or we're angry, and we scream, and that releases the, the energy, and then we feel better.
And so creative arts, therapies, music are anything expressive, helps people kind of complete that emotion cycle. And it's really healthy for our nervous systems. And I also specialize in legacy work, which is helping people tell their stories in a way that honors how they want to be remembered. So legacy work as a way to empower people living with dementia and empower their loved ones to talk about life, talk about the things that were meaningful, preserve elements that hold resonance, or magic or importance or love, or power, right to an individual or to a family, and find a way to preserve and then share that. Because as humans, our deepest, deepest desire, whether we want to admit it or not, is to not feel irrelevant.
We want to know that we were here, and that we mattered, and that people knew that we were here and knew that we mattered and will talk about us, hopefully, when we're gone, and we don't just disappear into the oblivion of the universe. And so kind of on that deeply, deeply human level, right, offering people an end of life or with a chronic illness or terminal illness, a way to preserve their humaneness helps on a, the kind of right now interpersonal level, like we talked about the benefits of creativity, but also on a deeper, deeper existential level of, you know, I'm a human I was here, did I matter? Does anyone care? And you know, our answer is Hell yeah, of course you did.
Wendy
Yes. Oh, my gosh. Meaning like, what, what am I doing here, here with my time here with my life, I love and appreciate so much that there's such focus and energy on like, No, we're talking about life and living and quality of life. And I think this is where sort of like the, A, a journey that is touched by dementia and touched by grief. At the same time, if we talk about grief on this channel, we're talking about the change or halt of a familiar pattern or behavior.
And so change is just part of a dementia journey for a person and their loved ones. So it's, everyone is unique. Everyone is like really individual. And so that means that it's not all going to look like or feel like anybody else's no matter if you have Alzheimer's, which is what 70% of the folks with dementia are experiencing an Alzheimer's experience or an experience of Alzheimer's, if you will. But it's all still different.
And this is the same with grief. So it's really important to just relax about like, Hey, if you're having the experience, you're, you're actually doing it right. If you're having the experience I love Jael when you were talking about, hey, the feelings are here and they get to be expressed and processed. Even in a nonverbal way. It still counts. You're gonna say something, please.
Jael
When you're talking about the unique element of everyone's experience. I think that's something really, really important in grief and in dementia. Because humans hate unpredictability. We like little taste of it as like a like a fun surprise. But we don't like it on a like resonant, interpersonal kind of cosmic level. We hate it.
And so with grief and with dementia, we it's instinctual. It's completely understandable that we want a blueprint. We want to know what's going to happen, right? That's why people are all the Five Stages of Grief Oh, I'm in anger. Now, next steps bargaining, you know, it's like, oh, sorry, but that's not how it works, you're gonna bop around, and you're going to not really know what's happening or what stage you're in and multiple stages at the same time. And that feels scary. Same with dementia, right?
Or, you know, specifically with Alzheimer's, because there's so much research done about it, we love to have some, some map right of this is going to happen, and then this is going to happen, and then you're going to experience this, and then you're going to feel this, but our brains are all unique, and the way that they get impacted by dementia is all unique. And so there is no blueprint. And I think that's an element that makes it really, really scary, both grief and dementia.
Wendy
100%. Well, you know, like, if we're talking about our kind of primal brain from that 1000s of years ago, when we were all trying to, like, survive in a cave, if you will, like, Hey, we're constantly sort of like having this voice in our head that says, We're not safe, and we need to survive and evolve. And this is, like, you know, all all of us here in this room right now. We are sheltered we have beverages, we are enjoying technology, and it's hot, like one of his highest forms, in my opinion. And so, you know, like, this is a connective piece. And so it's part like, it's really a natural thing that we are hearing, hey, how am I gonna do this? I don't know if I can do this.
And we don't, we don't know if we can do it. Well, what I'm gonna say is, we may not know if we can do it, but we don't sure know how to do it. And this goes for I'm guessing caregivers, care partners, loved ones have the person who has dementia, but also, you know, like, the entire family, everybody's identity kind of changes. When someone in a family or in a an organization has dementia, what would you what would you say to that? Kaylee?
Kaylee
I think I think you're absolutely hitting the nail on the head. So just to use a personal example, my dad is living with dementia, he has a traumatic brain injury. So it's a TBI related dementia. And our relationship is not very father daughter. Right. Our relationship is a care partner and Dad, dad with dementia. Right.
So I think what is hard about that, is it's a moving target. Right? Is once I've figured out how Kaylee and dad are as father daughter, that's ripped away. He's he's had a brain injury, he's in recovery. He's changing all the time. What's this look like now? And then now in my 30s, stepping up, as you know, an at home care partner with him? Okay, well, what's that look like?
And knowing that dementia is a progressive disease, meaning it is terminal, it is going to be lifelong. And it is going to end when his life ends, and that I am going to meet many iterations of my dad, and therefore my relationship to him will be ever shifting, my approach that is going to be best suited for success for me and for him, is going to be ever shifting.
But what I what I've been thinking about a lot lately is isn't that everybody isn't that just relationships like the husband I met, when he was my boyfriend at 27 is not who he is at 36 That's were completely different people, I'm not who I was at girlfriend 23. You know, like, he is a new version of himself, my sister when she was a little girl is a very different sister than she is now.
And all of our relationships, go through this evolution, all of our relationships and all of us as individuals go through evolution and change and become new people. And it's, it's the breaking of the mold in my head of here's who I expect you to be and here's the box you've always fit into, and realizing over and over again, that I don't really know who you are, you know who you are. And my expectation of who I need you to be is crumbling. And the less I hold on to that, the better I can adapt and actually meet you who who, for who you are that day for who you are that minute. Right? Because with dementia, it does sometimes change minute for minute.
Wendy
Mm hmm. Right? So I'm hearing being present. And this is like a what can feel like an exhausting job sometimes totally to be present until like Wow. And that's full. That's like 24/7. What? Please allow me to sleep, please. Like, consciousness is something I would like to take a tiny break from I have to take a nap. Right?
Erin, I see you. And I would love to hear more around like awareness and change and feelings that come come up. Just so people feel like if they're experiencing, say symptoms of or as a care partner, like what are some of the things that they may be wandering inside their bodies or wandering inside their minds and hearts? Like, is this normal? And actually happening? Huh?
Erin
Yeah, really, really good question. And, like with everything with dementia, it's so different for each person. And that's something that we that we try to shout from the rooftops, the work we do with people, it's like, you know, the support we provided to this family isn't going to be the same cookie cutter approach that we use with the next one.
So in checking in with yourself about, you know, is this dementia? Is this just normal aging? Or is this not normal aging, but maybe it's not even dementia, like, that's still something that you have to look at, from a really personal place. Because we're all starting from a different baseline, if you will.
So you want to look at, you know, what's different for that person, you know, if if you're somebody who always, you know, always loses their keys and never has things in a proper place, you know, and that's kind of been how you've operated in life, your whole life. As soon as you get older, and you you know, can't find your keys, I'd caution you from jumping to the conclusion, you know, oh, my God, I must have put them in check. You know, that's something you've been doing your whole life, that's not for that person.
You know, however, if you've been somebody who's really, you know, had established routines in your life, you know, you've always been able to, you know, find the, the words, you know, the vocabulary to express yourself, and all of a sudden, you're really unable to successfully find that word. That might be a little clue for you, you know, to get yourself checked out. And again, there might be so many other factors at play, that have absolutely nothing to do with dementia. Right. There could be another mental health issue, a physical health issue, you know, something's going on with medication.
Wendy
Stress, is stress. Yeah, I mean, maybe stress.
Erin
Yeah, totally things that just put strain on our brain that can mimic dementia like symptoms, you know, I know that when I'm stressed, or I haven't even gotten enough sleep, like, I can't find my words, you know, grief, that is something that can mimic dementia like symptoms, your brains not firing at full capacity. So, you know, give yourself some grace out there.
And, you know, I'd say just a couple telltale signs, you know, to keep an eye out is, you know, your, your na unable to think the same as you did before, or to complete tasks or go about your life the same way you could earlier in life, getting started on a task, initiating sequencing, and then completing a task and moving on. That's usually kind of assign like, something's going on. Something's different.
Wendy Sloneker 23:21
Wendy
You know, what comes up, like the thought occurs to me that entering into menopause is also similar in these symptoms, like I My God, like, please. Like, if my experience has been anything it really like everything you said, I was like, Oh, that feels like menopause. So another hormones are yes, hormone enhanced or not. Like, this is what we're going through. Yeah, Kaylee, what were you gonna say?
Kaylee
You know, what else is similar about dementia and menopause we don't talk about so when you're walking through this experience, you're like, Am I crazy? Is this what it's like? And, and there's this whole silent population that absolutely could tell you yes, this is exactly what it's like, yes, we're going through this journey. But there's this social stigma that we don't talk about it. Not at least not, you know, outwardly, maybe a whisper to a close friend in your circle. Those really trusted inner relationships. But as a society as a whole. We're not talking about menopause. We're not talking about dementia.
Wendy
Grief, dementia, menopause leg let's just like and you know, there are more things as well. But this is just sort of like scratching the what are we not talking about? That is impacting us and our quality of life? Wow, we're living. We're still living. Yeah.
Erin
Oh my gosh, definitely one of those things that gets talked about in hushed tones behind closed doors. So we're very open and loud and vocal about them the word
Wendy
Please. Well, can we just continue on for a little bit longer around quality of life because this is still like while we're making meaning. And while these things like the purpose is also to, like, enjoy and experience life. So, I would love to hear from each of you kind of around that topic of quality of life, not only for the person with dementia, but also for the loved ones and care partners, surrounding including potentially, co workers, employees, like it can really ripple out and show how connected we are.
Kaylee, I'd love to start with you, please.
Kaylee
Sure, yeah. So one of the things that that gives us quality of life is connecting to the things we enjoy. And another is feeling useful, and other is having purpose. And those are all things that I think we try to bring to our clients and to help them feel fulfilled in those ways.
We were talking earlier about how our identities and our sense of self grow and change over time, regardless of brain change, and certainly in dementia, but one of the things that also happens is, there's a through line of some of the core things that make us who we are and, and that we kind of hang our identities on.
And one of the painful things about dementia is some of those things that you might have considered really core to your loved one is different, is opposite. But there, there usually are still those small nuggets of a well, that's still the same, you know, I can't I don't recognize my mom at all, but she does still love gardening. Oh, great, let's get our hands dirty, let's put our, our fingers into the dirt, let's find ways that she can do things, she still loves to do find purpose, be useful, all of those things can be done with gardening, right.
And when I see that with music, one of the things that I think is really profound, on the other side for the loved one, to find those things. And to find those connections, is they get to kind of visit there memory of who their loved one used to be through a song.
So if you find that song that really lights them up, that really engages them, and helps them kind of come to life and brighten up, then you as the loved one are looking at your your person and recognizing them. Oh my gosh, I haven't seen dad smile like that in such a long time. Oh, he was just like him all his old self again. Right?
It's that power of taking these creative elements. And and using them to tap into those parts of ourselves that are still there that are always there that are maybe buried behind the haze of symptoms and medications and setting and you know these different things that keep us from thriving. And then you find the right piece, you find the right approach. And you get to kind of have a door into their world.
And you get to share a world for a moment, right. And one of the things that I've said, and it's actually something my mom and I were talking about her dad also has dementia. So my mom and I are on these cool, like parallel journeys together. And she was talking about is it worth it to, you know, take grandpa to do these things and, and, you know, spend all this time because by the time I dropped them off at home, he doesn't remember, I am not always this profound. But I just had a moment where I said, Mom, the memories are for us. The moments are for him. Right?
We're creating moments with him. That's where he's living. He's living in the present. He's living in the moment. You get to take those memories, right? You're not creating memories for grandpa right now. That's not where he is anymore. create those beautiful moments. And then you get to hold those memories. That's your role now, as somebody who gets to take his legacy, take his life, take his memories on into the future and kind of shepherd that you hold those memories now.
Wendy
Mm hmm. So good. So, so good. Thank you. And I imagine like you know, for many of the care partners and caregivers care sharers that I know it is also important for them to reconnect with things that they find connection with and meaning with and usefulness with. Because while there may be a lot that gets learned or taken on often with other members of the household, there's still a need for time to connect with yourself. And you know, and with your person who has dementia, but like those get to be for you, too.
What else Erin, I'd love to hear.
Erin
Yes. To that point. I think the importance of care partners reconnecting with what's important to them goes hand in hand with a lot of people's decision. Do I keep mom or dad at home? Or do I move them into a care community. And that is a conversation that can, like hold that dialectic of like, right? This is for me, like, I know that they're going to end up getting the better care of being in the better environment that they need to be, and I'm going to get the relief. And then on the other hand, I'm gonna have the grief and guilt of like, them being putting mom in a home, you know.
We find that a lot, I don't know if I mentioned before, but I run a memory care here locally, so I'm working a lot with families who are navigating that really complex choice to make for themselves and for their loved one. And then always, you know, just trying to gear it back to a radical act of self care for everybody, you know, being able to recognize when you don't have the wherewithal, you know, whether it's the awareness, or the skills, or just the bandwidth to be able to care for somebody, while you know, also maintaining your own life and your own self care, you know, and, and trusting.
You know, I don't take for granted that people trust me and my team of people to care for their most beloved person in their most vulnerable time. So it's a big leap of faith, family's part, and then being able to come be with them. And like Kaylee said, like to have the moments, right to have those moments that, that for their loved one is, is really just a moment like of connection. But for that family member, that's a memory that they can take home and put that in their, you know, memory, bank and support as they go through their own grief process.
Wendy
So I think that's so amazing, because, you know, like, one thing that we talked about just a few minutes ago was the roles and how roles change. And so when you're considering, like, best possible care for this person, what if like, the role of care partner is not one that is great for you, you don't have to take on a guilt perspective, like the thoughts of guilt, or the thoughts of like, what do we make it mean, when the best possible care is going to come from somebody else? What do we make that mean about us, that's totally a personal, unique experience that we get to go through ourselves. And so you know, if you get to trade in the care partner role in order to be the spouse, or the daughter, or the partner, or the whoever you can be your best possible, you know, role and identity, but this is this is just one thing. So it's like wild, how many facets and how many touch points. This connects with? Yeah, this is blowing my mind this whole conversation.
Jael I would love to hear a little bit more from you. And then final final thoughts coming out?
Jael
Yeah, you know, I think two things that kind of were, like bubbled up for me, as I was listening to Kaylee and Erin talk about, you know, quality of life and self care. And that realm of things, is kind of two separate but intersecting pieces, right.
So on the self care side, from a care partner perspective, we talk a lot about the kind of internal judgment and shame cultivated around not being able to do enough or be enough. And there is a pretty high percentage of people who provide care for women. And women, really, in our culture, specifically, like really struggle to prioritize themselves. And it is seen as a selfless, generous, morally superior way to be to give and give and do and care for, and really give all of our selves in service of another. And there is something beautiful about being able to give a piece of ourselves in service of another, but to give all of ourselves means there is none of us left. And that halts our journey.
And it also then uses up our internal resource to continue care or to care for another or to care for multiple people, right or continue caring. And so, when we talk about self care, it's become such a kind of commodified concept of, you know, buy this Fizzy Bath Bomb and do your self care and it's like, a bubble bath is phenomenal, but it can only do so much existential restoration. I guess it depends on the bath, honestly, but
Wendy
Or bath through my finances at the same time, great. I'll take the bat but a lot of times self care does not feel so. Exactly. Until after.
Jael
Right, right. Exactly. It's a It's really a brave thing to do, to choose to continue nourishing yourself as you're nourishing someone else. And also, that connected me to the kind of second piece around identity. And as a care partner, our identities shift so frequently in life, right, but we still kind of hold on really tightly to particular versions of our identity, right. And so if we have always been seen as the selfless mother, right, or the daughter who has it all together, to radically changed that and start prioritizing ourselves and making different choices than people have known us to historically make.
That is hard people in social systems really struggle when someone who has been a major support piece shifts to prioritize themselves, that's really difficult for systems to tolerate. But it is possible and we help families and communities do that care communities do that, because that's the only sustainable way for it to be oh my
Wendy
Oh my gosh, so grateful. So glad this has been such an amazing first conversation, I'm just throwing it out there. First of several conversations with the Creative Dementia Collective. Thank you each so much for your care and your attention and your gigantic hearts. For this work and your energy for this work. It's a delight to speak with you, all the contact information you could ever need is going to be in them show notes coming out when we drop this episode.
So you definitely have a way to contact the collective and then each of the members individually as desired. I know I follow your Instagram, like religiously, I'll go ahead and say it spiritually religiously, actively. You guys really have it together. So please continue on. And please come back when you come back.
Jael
Yes. Oh, absolutely. Or do you have 70 topics I want to talk about with you when I think yeah, well,
Kaylee
I have like 15 different thoughts right now.
Wendy
Yum, yum, yum. Okay, two more to come. Take good care.
Erin
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Wendy
Hi, it's Wendy. Thank you so much for listening. If something resonated or stuck out or sort of hummed with you in this episode, and you want to either talk more about it, or have me talk more about it, let's schedule a connection call.
It could be that you are ready to learn how to release emotional pain. This sounds great. It's great to do and it's great on the other side, regardless, you're invited.
So if you think it's time for a free 30 minute connection call, I would love to have that with you. Go to [email protected] to email and schedule or you can text or call 206-498-8025 and schedule it that way. I would love to talk with you and I would love to listen to you too.
Thank you and thanks for coming back for the next episode too.