This is sometimes what happens when a person in your life dies and accumulate, like things get accumulated from their place, from their life, from their house, from their garage into yours. And it may be that grief has such that you wake up kind of, you know, a year, 18 months, two years after this death. And you realize all this stuff is now with you and you don't know what to do.

There may be things that you want. There may be things that you're ready to let go of. There may be things that you feel bad about letting go of... what do you do with it? This is what we're talking about with Katrina Hamilton today on the heart healing from loss podcast. So glad you're here. So I'd like to welcome Katrina Hamilton of Katrina Consults to the show. Katrina! Welcome!

Katrina Hamilton
Thanks so much for having me. I'm glad to be here.

Wendy Sloneker
Really delighted you're here. Now I want to jump right in and ask what is grief clutter?

Katrina
So grief clutter is the stuff that comes with the grieving process. We think a lot about bereavement. This could be actually any kind of grief. I see it a lot with past jobs that the stuff you have left over from your old job is very common for grief clutter, but specifically when a loved one dies you know, there's the practical concern of maybe clearing out their house and an estate and everything.

But what tends to happen is that individuals close, loved ones, come home with a couple of boxes. You know, maybe it's just, you know, two or three, maybe it's 20.

And they bring those into their home. They're in the middle of the grieving process, they don't really know what to do. They can't imagine how they could possibly process, you know, grandmas prized, possessions, or whatever it is.

And it just sort of sits there for a very long time. And it to kind of take on a life of its own as far as the weight that it brings into the home. Just being there, even, even if it's, you know, in the garage, in the attic, in a closet, whatever it's almost certainly not in a state that anyone decided to have it be in. It is, it is probably in the boxes that happened to be around when you were cleaning out the house and you brought them all home.

Especially if you had to travel, it's like, you just got home from like being away for a week. You know, you're scrambling, they get pushed away. And then they just sit there and they accumulate over the years. The there's sort of a mental baggage that they start to build on their own, even though they don't physically grow at all. So that's kind of what I think of most when I think of a grief clutter.

Wendy
Amazing. So yeah, these like to just sort of paint the visual picture could be in the garage, like you were saying, probably not the most sturdy boxes, especially if it's like at the last hour last sort of like day or days at the house, before it gets prepared to sell that kind of stuff. There was one instance I I'd love to just share.

It was my grandmother's passing. And there were a lot of things that were just getting rid of it was the house that my mom had been in for a lot of years, the house that I knew my grandmother to be in, like her only house I ever knew of. And we were just kind of down to the last couple of bowls of Pyrex like mixing bowls and kitchen utensils and stuff that I already had.

But my mom was also really like, do you want to take this? Do you want to take this? Like, she really wanted to be sure that it was getting to a useful place or a family member or something like that.

And the intention was, you know, can we, can we keep grandma's stuff or my mom's stuff? Like, are you sure you have a use for it? Like really trying to keep it inside of the, either the family or its usefulness. Do you find this in your with your clients as well?

Katrina
Yeah. So when, when we finally do start to sort out the grief clutter, you, you realize that in that, in that moment, that sort of like hot feeling of grief that happened right after someone died. It's not a great decision making time.

And I tell people like, it's not going to be, and you shouldn't feel bad that it wasn't, that's not really what it's for. You know, that was for you, for your family, for processing those feelings, the fact that you maybe grabbed everything in sight, like that's a perfectly reasonable, valid response.

Rather than trying to, to actually think about what to do and you end up with a lot of stuff where it's like, I grabbed all the stuff. That means something to me. And now there's also just like perfectly usable HomeGoods here. I, I feel like they should go somewhere.

 And so you end up with those two. And so what happens is that time has passed now. I always tell people, I recommend that the ideal time for grief clutter, like going through it is actually a little more than a year after they died.

Which is kind of the only time in my work where I specifically tell people to wait because anything before that, and you're really too close to, to the death. You're too close to that. That hot grief that happens right away. But after a year, you know, you've now had all the seasons, all the holidays without them.

And your, your kind of picture of them, the memory that you're going to keep forever now that they're gone is a little bit clearer. And so you open up the box and you start to realize that, you know, my memory of, you know, my mom does not involve these measuring cups. You know, my, my picture of her is not this particular, you know, set of Tupperware.

It's, you know, these are just things that, that we, that we happened to take while we were there, because we didn't know what to do. And so, but you need that kind of space to, to really understand, you know, what did I put in here that actually means something to me.

And before you really like handle any of those grieving feelings that loss, sometimes we don't know what means, you know, what it means to us. Like it could be the mixing bowl that we always made cookies in together, or that especially bad brownie batch that happened and exploded. Like that could be the memory that you're keeping, but we don't always know until we kind of go through our, our feelings first.

I'm, I'm thinking of one, one particular client that he had all these like kind of crystal candy dishes that his mother always had on, you know, the, the coffee table and he loved peanut M and M's. And so the sound of the like ring of the crystal lid coming off the bottom, which means that it's time to grab the peanut M and M's like, that is what meant something to him.

And when we were going through stuff, he had four of these dishes you know, this is not going anywhere in his house. It's not his style or anything, but it certainly reminds him of his mother. And so we actually did, was I just like one by one lifted the lid off of all of them to like, get that like thing of the crystal coming off.

And he was able to tell me like that one, that one sounds like mom. And, and it can be stuff like that where it's like, you're, you're trying to look for like, what is it? You know, these crystal dishes remind me of that moment, that sound. And so that's the one we kept in. The other ones could go away.

Wendy
Because that, in a sense just brings it right back. I mean, that's what we're talking about is like that, like that loving memory of mom in his case, like that's so gorgeous and like, wow, we don't need all four to do that. We can achieve that.

Now this brings up since I mentioned, like going from four to one, can we talk a little bit about like minimizing and like the whole tidy thing that happened with Marie Kondo and our, like, when I've talked to you before, it really hadn't been about like, make sure that we're going down to this like, type of aesthetic that is minimalist and that's not what you do, correct?

Katrina
Right. I would say that it's not actually what Marie Kondo does either. It is, it is what it seems like she's doing sometimes, but but it's not actually the message that she promotes and she even has like, w it was always funny to me when people got on her case about books, because she even uses books as an example in her book that like, some people want a lot of books.

That's great for them. And I feel like with the, with the grief clutter, it's similar, which is that you got to look what she advocates for. And I totally agree with this is you know, what is the area of your life that you're getting joy from? And that's where you should invest your valuable space resource that you have.

And so, you know, like going back to this crystal example, it's like, he does not need to spend space in his house for four crystal dishes when one is what he really needs, especially because it's just going to go into a glass case to be admired nine, be used.

It's not like he's going to break it. Like, that's not a concern. And so that's what you have to look for because what happens and I see this a lot is that it's like, well, grandpa had a coin collection and everybody remembers grandpa has having the coin collection.

So when he died, everybody took home a bunch of coins because there were so many of them and now we all have so many coins. And the thing is, is that no one else collected coins. It was just grandpa. You don't need a collection to remind you that that was what he did. So you got to look at it and say like, how many, you know, how many of these coins, and it's probably not this, you know, entire giant pickle jar worth that I took, you know what, what would actually really remind me of grandpa, especially cause if you go through them, you'll start to realize that, you know, some of them are like, you know, just cheap, old, you know, things that don't really mean anything to you, whatever, but you can go through and really look and say like, okay, so what, what do I personally think is cool or what reminds me of him?

And you start to go through and you might end up with five maybe which to me then turns into something a lot more precious than the full jar was because now it's, it's not just I, you know, crap ahead, 10,000 coins. And I walked home with 800 of them, and now they're in a jar. They in a plastic bag in my hall closet.

It's, you know, these are, these are the ones that I found in his collection that I really loved and make me really happy. And they make me think of him. And now I can take that small number and say, keep them, you know, maybe by my desk, even if I want to see them all the time or put them in a display cabinet, or even put them in, you know, a cute little box and keep it in the hall closet.

So that's the other thing that I tell people is that, you know, we talked about how grief clutter, you know, one of the sort of signature identifiers is that it's in a box. It never meant to be in it's, you know, whatever, whatever we left the house with is, is what it's still probably in.

Sometimes the stuff that we take from our loved ones that we want to keep, we do just want to store, you know it's not, it's not our style, it's not our use. Maybe we're keeping them for like our kids to be able to see maybe we were imagining that we're going to use them some later time in life and we just want to hold on to them. That's totally fine.

The thing that is not fine is having them in this sort of uncared for way, because that's what creates the guilt of how I'm treating, you know, the stuff this important cared for stuff.

I'm just letting it sit in this old box. That's probably going to get wet and mold damage, and that it's all going to be destroyed. You know, you gotta take it out of that and say, okay, I want to store this. I'm going to even just get, you know, an ordinary plastic bin that you got from target. It doesn't really matter, but it's a choice that I made to put it into this thing and put it into this area of storage in my house on purpose.

And that's really the process that I think is most important for people. And the thing that I encourage them when I realized that we're encountering a piece of grief clutter, because sometimes they'll, they'll come at us individually. I had a client recently that it's like, I pull out this vase and I'm like, what's this? And she just kind of sighs.

Because it's, you know, it was basically the, the last gift that her mother-in-law gave the two of them before she died. And so it's this weird thing that like doesn't quite mean anything, but it means a lot at the same time. And so it was just a lot to deal with, and it just kept being shoved in different corners.

And the problem there is the not making the decision, not making the choice of either we're going to have this out, we're going to have it in a box or we're going to have it leave the house. It's, it's leaving that on thought of an undecided that creates guilt about how we're treating our loved one's possessions. And therefore it feels like how we're treating their memory and to them.

Wendy
So clarity is kind of a goal just around, like, it doesn't matter what I choose to do with it, but how, how am I going to do it? So, you know, like, let's take care of it, let's put it in the bin. I can actually see what's in there. It's not in some anonymous box that, you know, like, wow, what if it accidentally gets tossed?

And I didn't really have that decision already, like, would that compound some guilt or like feelings of like, dang, I wish I didn't do that.

Katrina
And the thing is, is that even before that happens, a lot of people it's like, it's a weight that they live with of worrying that that's gonna happen. You know, it's because it's like, they know, they know that, you know, my mother's like lace whatevers, you know, her that, that beautiful, like bed set that she made herself or something is in one of those boxes that I took home from her house and it's in the garage and the longer it stays there, the more likely it is to get mold or get mobs or whatever.

And I know that's possible. I know that every single day I'm risking that, and that weight is huge. Because even though it's, it's just S you know, theoretically small practical problem, like I said, it, it feels like that's how I'm treating my loved one to have it be there. And that really, really sits heavy on people.

Wendy
Mm well, also I've noticed, that if they don't know how they're gonna feel like around grief, and they may not feel like they have time to go into, it's not that they don't have time to like, take care of a box it's they don't have time to like, go through and discover how they're going to feel when they see that thing again. Exactly. Right. Like, am I going to be on done with that if I open that box?

Katrina
And, and that's actually, I would say another thing that I see most often, and I think part of the reason that people find it more helpful to do it when I'm there because I'm kind of forcing the issue and, and making them deal with this and look at this what happens is, so I said, you know, I don't encourage people to go through the box, you know, in the first year.

But the thing to keep in mind is that the longer it stays in, in that condition. And however, it came home, the longer it stays there, not going through the more you'll build a relationship with that box that isn't accurate. Because what you'll, what you'll have in your head is a memory of the most difficult decision that's in that box that you, that you knew at the time you could make.

And that's why you didn't make it in that moment. And it was it, you know, something about like, so let's say this is like, grandmother's silver. And so, you know, it's really valuable, you know, it meant a lot to her, but you're kind of like, is that really for my style? Am I ever going to use fancy silver? I'm not sure.

And that was an impossible decision to make at the time. Totally reasonable. And you know, that that's in the box, there's a bunch of other stuff in that box that is plastic you know, Tupperware that she got from Walmart. And you know, other like photographs of people that you don't recognize and just like other things that actually, aren't very hard for you to deal with. They would have been hard at the time, but they won't be hard now, but because your memory of that box is all around that one really difficult decision.

It feels like everything in the box is going to be difficult. And if there's more than one box, it feels like every single box is just as hard as the hardest decision. And the longer, the longer the boxes stay that way unlooked at. And the longer you put it off, the more it's going to feel like the decision is really big. It's really difficult. And every single inch of what I kept from my loved one is that difficult. And that's why it's going to be such an impossible thing to do.

Wendy
Much overwhelm. Like, I just feel like it's like the snowball that like becomes an avalanche of potential emotion. And that frankly sounds like there's more of a relationship with the stuff that they don't want to deal with than there is with the memory of the person that they loved.

Katrina
Oh, and I love the way you phrase that too, because that is 100%. What, what starts to happen is you build a relationship with the stuff that is different than the relationship you had with the person. And so while you have spent all of this time healing from that grief and loss and defining for yourself what your new relationship is, because you still have a relationship, even with someone who's not here anymore.

But you've, you've figured that out, you've, you've processed it. You've been going through your life. You're starting to get better, but you haven't had any of that work with you in the stuff you and the stuff are in this very stuck place that is not changing, and nothing's getting better. It's only getting worse. You're probably building some resentment as well. So your relationship with the stuff is getting worse as the relationship with the person gets better.

And so it just, it, it feels like you said kind of impossible thing to tackle even when it's very likely that it's not like if you, if you actually did it, it wouldn't be as bad as it seems like it's going to be. And I think, like I said, that's like when, when I show up and kind of force the issue, people ha you know, stop making excuses.

And they're like, well, you know, Katrina's here. I hired her for this. So this is, I guess what we're doing. And that's when they realized this is not actually as bad as they expected it to be.

Wendy
Right. Oh, that's exciting. Hey, I'd like to go to back to that grandpa's coin collection in the pickle jar example, because, you know, depending on the relationship and this may happen, this may be something you're seeing a lot in your practice as well.

Like even if grandpa is like the biggest baddest coin collector in the world a relationship with a grandfather that doesn't have anything to do with a coin collection, let's say, like it had more to do with the pickle jar than it did with the coins. Like, what if I just want to keep the pickle jar? And I feel bad that he was like all about the coin collecting, but I don't have any reason or enthusiasm or memory value that has to do with his coin collection.

What do I like? Is it okay to just keep the pickle jar? Because we may pick us that one summer. And that was awesome.

Katrina
And, and I love that you bring that up too, because that's, the other thing is you know, the person who, whose who's gone, you know, their style is not your style and they never expected it to be pro hopefully, probably not in life. You know, you're two different people and they always knew that. And it's not, it's not your job to maintain their house after they're gone, it's your job to maintain their memory.

And the only part of their memory that you really have is your memories of them. So whatever memories you have of them, whatever objects help with that or cement that, or make you happy, those are the ones you want to keep. And a really important thing to keep to that. I love about that example specifically too, is that the coins might be monetarily quite valuable depending on what kind of collector he was and the jar is not.

And that doesn't matter because something that I, I usually don't say it, this bluntly to someone's face, but in general, this is the point I'm trying to get across objects. Don't actually have objective value. Objects have value to people whatever value they have to you. You know, if you, if you think about like you know, if you live in a condo, a lawnmower is not valuable.

Yes. Technically it's valuable to some people, but it's not valuable to you if you don't care about coins, but you care about the jar, the jar is valuable and the coins are not, and it doesn't matter how much the person thought about them or how much the outside world might think about them. The point is you're trying to preserve a memory and a relationship. And so, whatever it is that we'll do that, that's what you keep.

And whatever it is that doesn't do that specifically, if it may be even harms it. So that's another thing that sometimes people will they'll feel, they'll feel kind of indebted to keep certain things. And when we really start talking about it and examining it, we realized that this is not actually the part of their loved one that they liked or made them happy. This is actually kind of a bad memory.

And you know, it's, it's okay to keep that kind of stuff. If you feel like it represents a certain amount of growth or history, like, there's something about that that does feel good and solid, but if all it's bringing up is negativity or resentment or sadness or whatever, and there's no real positive benefit, you feel like you're getting from that.

You don't need to keep those, those items. I'm just like, I wouldn't recommend you keep them in your own stuff. You don't need to keep someone else's stuff that makes you sad. Basically.

Wendy
Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. So there's some permission going on in like, kind of the work that you do around, like, yeah, this doesn't go with what your stuff is, and that's not the purpose of it. Isn't for it to go aesthetically or design wise or whatever. It's like, how does it make you feel? And what does it sort of like bring up for you?

Katrina
And you have to ask yourself to, you know, assuming you had a good relationship with this person that you love them, and they love you.

Is there, is their dying wish for you really, for you to keep something that is a burden that that doesn't make you feel good, that is a big waste of time that is expensive to maintain? Like, are they really gonna want that for you? Especially when, you know, for all, you know, they really understood that. It's like, yeah, this is just my coin collection. I just do it for fun.

You can throw it all on a river for all I care, you know, depending on whether or not you have ever, ever even talked to the person about it. You know, you can imagine that if you had a good relationship that they're like looking down on you being like, oh no, don't get rid of my stuff.

Even if it makes you unhappy, please, please keep it. And the fact of the matter is if you had a bad relationship with them and you're like, actually, while you don't know my mother-in-law, she was terrible. And she would have definitely gotten mad at me for getting rid of her stuff. There's a certain degree to which you don't need to be in charge of holding on to a bad relationship with a dead person.

You know, that's not really benefiting you either. And it's just kind of it's reminding you of all of that. Person's worst traits, which is also not a great way to memorialize someone or honor, right.

Wendy
Or, you know, spend time in your day.

Katrina
Or heart, not a good use of your life, and it's not benefiting the debt at all.

Wendy
Right, right. Oh, that's so good. So Katrina, if there's like some tips that you had for people who are maybe looking to say, they're not in sort of the Seattle area and you can't come over what would you recommend for the folks who are looking to just sort of like, get a sense of what this could be like for them to kind of look inside some of those boxes that are really heavy emotionally?

Katrina
So for starters, I mean, we talked about how it can be intimidating because it feels like overwhelming will take forever.

What I would say is set aside at least an hour, that you can kind of promise yourself, like I'm going to at least start looking for one full hour because that, that's an, that's a nice, healthy amount of space to really get into something and start looking for it. But it's not so overwhelming to imagine, you know, that I'm going to be doing this for the next week, if you can give, you know, normally when I come over and help someone we're working for like three to five or six hours, maybe total, but we're working on like a whole room.

We're not only working on these particular items. So if you can give yourself maybe one to two hours that you've really scheduled in your day and set aside then if you live with anyone, you should tell those people what you do what you're going to do and tell them what you would like from them.

Most likely either distance or comfort you know, depending on who they are and your relationship with them and what you're dealing with, it might be like, can you please just leave me alone for two hours so I can do this, or can you leave me alone, but don't go far away because I might come out crying and a mess and I'll want you there.

So just make kind of your expectation clear for the people in your house that like, this is, this is what I'm going to maybe need right now. Some other things to keep in mind when you talked about you don't need to rush through this. So like I said, if, if it's too close to it, if it still feels like really, really volatile, like don't do it right now. Wait, wait a little bit longer.

The other thing I'd say is sometimes when we're going through stuff we'll find these little ways to try to cheat ourselves out of it. And the most common one I see is I'm just going to go online real quick to see if I can buy this thing that I think I'm going to need to store it.

Like, like trying to go shopping online for like storage solutions is a great way to convince yourself that you're working when you're not. So avoid any sort of online research or purchases at all until you've given yourself some time to really go through everything. You know, you can make a little note that like, oh, I need to look for this. Because first of all, you don't actually know what you need until you're done looking through all your stuff.

So your needs might change and you know, you've wasted all that time looking for something, it turned out you didn't need or you need something different. But mostly it's so that you don't get sidetrack that you don't let yourself get us. Cause now, now you're on your phone and now you get a text message and now the entire hour is gone. And like, your husband comes in, he's like, oh, how was your mother's stuff? And you're like, oh, well, I opened up one thing and then I got sidetracked.

Wendy
Right. I'm going to cook a four-course dinner now because now I really don't want to do it. Yeah.

Katrina
So those are, those are kind of some of the things to, to keep in mind. And, and I'd sort of, I'd reiterate what we said at the beginning too, which is there's no bad choice to be made with anything that you find the, the choices, what matters.

So most likely either you're going to find something that you realize you have no emotional connection to at all anymore. And it just something that you took in the heat of the moment, you might not even remember doing it quite frankly.

And that can just go out of the house, you know, can go to Goodwill, whatever or you're going to find something that you actually really like. I mean, that's always kind of one of my first questions when it sounds like someone wants to keep something from a, a loved one is it's like, so should we put it out?

And actually do that, you know, you gave yourself an hour. So that's the other reason you give yourself that time so that you have time to actually take the thing and be like, okay, I want to display this in my home. I'm going to go get the hammer and the nail, and we're going to do it.

That's the kind of, that kind of sidetracking is fine when it's like, I'm actually going to try to put this up right now or put it out. And if you, if you ask yourself, like, do I want to put this on display? And the answer is no, actually I do not.

This is not something I want out of my home, but I don't want to get rid of it. That's when you start looking at, okay, so where do I want to store it? How do I want a storage that's that can be, you know, the, the end of that, that line there, but it's, it's probably going to be one of those.

The other thing I will say, and this will be kind of my other tip is a lot of times you'll find stuff where you can't make the decision because you realize that I need to ask my sister I need to check with my kids, you know, be, and, and I would also say, if you're doing this by yourself, try talking out loud to yourself because a lot of my clients come to all of their own conclusions on their own because they're explaining them to me.

And, and what I'm really doing is being the person that forces them to really articulate. And so it's like, they'll be going through why they kept it. And then they're like, I guess I just need to ask my sister, she wants this. And then text her right now. Like that is, that is another kind of distraction.

It's totally okay. Like if you realize that, like, I can't move forward on this until I get someone else's approval or okay. Or input, go ahead and reach out to them right now. Or, you know, put the thing in the spot. W'll, you'll take it to them next time you do whatever move you have to do to make it so that you're making that sort of proactive action because what'll happen.

I see it a lot is someone's already realized this and then put it back in the box. I'm not really thinking about the fact that it's like, well, my sister's not here. So I guess I can't, you know, possibly solve this problem. And they just sort of without meaning to they give up. And so if you do see something that you're like, well, I think I want to keep this because maybe my kids will want it.

You know, that's a really important one. Anytime you're like, maybe so-and-so will want to keep this, go ask them. Because it may not be the case. I actually helping my own family cloud some stuff for my grandma. I was talking to my mom and she had kept some things from my grandma specifically.

Cause she's like, well, I want to make sure that you and your sister have these items of grandma. And I'm like, mom, we have our own, like, we were also there at the house. We took our own boxes of stuff. Like we don't need duplicates. These are, do, you know, we already have ours. We don't need yours as well. And she didn't realize that she didn't realize that we already had our own mementos from our grandmother and that she was not in charge of keeping those for us.

Wendy
Yeah, such great information, such like usable immediately. Wow. Well, what, what else would you like to share that I am completely forgetting to ask you about at this one?

Katrina
I guess the only other thing I was thinking about when you suggested this topic and I kind of touched on this in the beginning is we've been, we've been talking a lot about bereavement type of grief but pretty much everything I've talked about today also happens with other kinds of grief.

And like I said a job, so someone who's retired or at least retired from a certain field of profession all of the time, you see the same thing where here's the box that I took from the office my last day there and brought it home and put it in the floor of my closet. And there it is sat for the last seven years.

And once again, the relationship with that box has grown because that box represents my entire career. And what you realize when you open it is that box is usually full of a bunch of paperwork.

That means nothing to you. You know, there's not really anything there it's, it's the same weighty feelings that we have with a deceased loved one that we have after a job loss, even a proactive, positive, happy one like retirement or the ending of any kind of relationship whether that's like a divorce or just, you know, cross-country move or something like that.

So all of these feelings that come up and the same strategies for how to do it and the same reasons for why you avoid doing it, there are, they're all the same. It, it all presents in almost identical ways.

Wendy
Thank you so much for your insight today, Katrina, it's really a gift that you are sharing what you've experienced and what you've learned and how you support people through, you know, organizing number one, but also through like finding those pieces in your house or in your garage that just can kind of have a lot more meaning and be a little more baffling as to how to deal with them.

Thank you so much if people thank you. Awesome. Please come back because we have more to talk about in terms of like kids and their stuff and what happens when they go through a grieving process, what can happen there and how stuff can change? I would love to bring you back. Will you come back?

Katrina
Yes, I would love to. Okay, great.

Wendy
Thank you. So if you're in the Seattle area or you think Katrina is totally your person for helping you with grief, clutter or digital organizing or regular organizing Katrina, how would you like people to get in touch with you?

Katrina
So they can check out my website, which is Katrina consults.com, or they can email me directly katrina@katrinaconsults.com. And that's K a T R I N A spelled just like the hurricane. And I will say for in-person they need to be in the greater Seattle area, but for a lot of this work we can actually do a lot of the discussion, the discussion online and I've been a lot of very successful zoom meetings with people helping prep them for a difficult, you know, physical day of organizing their stuff on their own.

So that can be another thing if someone's just feeling really paralyzed by the task ahead of them, we can do, you know, a little half hour, hour long chat where we talk about what is, you know, what are they most afraid of? What are they most worried about and give them a plan, which is what most people are lacking is an actual plan for, how am I going to tackle this? What's my day going to look like? So I've had a lot of help, a lot of success doing that.

Wendy
Is a debrief also like a possibility after the fact for those.

Katrina
Depending on the client. Sometimes it's like, they just need a plan and then they're off on their own. And I might just, you know, text or email them later to ask how it went and they'll send me a little picture or something. Other clients will do, you know, a once a month check-in for quite some time where we keep going back and I'll give them new homework and then ask them how you do on the last thing.

And so depending on what the client needs and how much work there is sometimes we, I love that like accountability of all. Now you have another meeting with Katrina and she's going to ask you if you did your homework, I guess I'm doing it. Yeah.

Wendy
Thank you. That sounds fantastic. So, you know, for the in-person greater Seattle area, but for the support of many kinds connect with Katrina consults.com. Awesome. Katrina, thank you again so much for staying with us, joining us here today. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.

Wendy
Thanks for joining me for this episode of heart healing from loss. Be sure to subscribe to this podcast on Stitcher pod, chaser, apple podcasts, or your favorite podcast or app I'm Wendy Sloneker. And you can find me online at wendysloneker.com that's W E N D Y S L O N E K E R.com.

Wendy Sloneker: 
Hey! Welcome back to the Heart Healing From Loss Podcast. I'm Wendy Sloneker, and I have Trish Throop of Eldercare Consulting, LLC right here digitally. So safe with me. We are more than six feet apart, but it feels like we are much closer thanks to audio technology.

And I feel close to you guys too, out in the audience. Thank you for spending your time with us.

Okay. So tonight is a little bit of a, a new topic. I haven't really talked a lot in this podcast in other episodes about ... wow! Parents! When they start to do what parents do, which is age and Trish, you've been working around people's parents, but you started with your own parent.
Could you tell us a little bit about that? ... And by the way, welcome!​

Trish Throop:
Thank you, Wendy. It's so good to be here.

Yeah, this is a big topic that a lot of families jumping into and really aren't prepared for.

And that's exactly what happened to me.

At the time I was a vice president of a major organization. I was traveling around 12 different states. And so I was rarely in Seattle and I got a call. I got the dreaded call, so to speak from my mother saying, Trish, I'm done here in Ohio. I think I need to move into assisted living. And I don't want to do it here. I want to come to Seattle and I'm thinking I'll be there within a month. Oh my gosh. My jaw dropped to the floor.

It was, I was thrilled to have her here. We'd been asking her to come for years, but all of a sudden I realized there was a ton of work to be done. And I didn't even know where to begin. I didn't know the questions to ask. I just could figure out, okay. She was going to move to Seattle. She would need housing. She would need doctors. She would need assistance.
And I had no clue what that meant.

Wendy:
Right. And this was back in when was this? Like 11 years ago? 12 years ago.

Trish:
Yes, exactly. It was about 12 years ago and I knew that I didn't have the time. As I said, I was traveling, working at a very high level and I started looking around for someone to help me. Cause I thought, oh, I can't be the first person to go through this. Right. But I couldn't find anyone. And so I was stuck doing all this work on airplanes and trying to figure things out, how to move her, how to, you know, how do you move a household of things to Seattle from Ohio? All these things started coming up and I just had to make time for it. And I, I learned along the way, but I also, you know, made huge errors as one does when you don't have anyone to help guide you. And I thought there's gotta be a better way. And so I stopped my job and with the nonprofit started taking classes, started talking to people and before you know it, I was setting up my own business realizing after realizing how much I enjoyed what I was doing. Uh, gosh,

Wendy:
That's like, that's kind of how you like would love for it to go. Is like I made some mistakes along the way. And we figured it out and now like, wow, I really like doing this. Like, that's a lovely epiphany to have if he can have it.

Trish:
Absolutely. It was fun. You know, when I looked back, I thought, oh my gosh, what am I doing? But I'm crazy. I'm crazy. I shouldn't be doing all this, but you know, I will never regret the time that I got to spend with my mother and the lessons I learned along the way were invaluable. And I still refer back to those days when working with clients now, it's like, oh yeah, I had to do that with my mom kind of things.

Wendy:
Right. So was it helpful that like the call came from your mom? Cause I'm guessing that some calls don't come from those parents, like some calls will come from like a sibling or something saying, Hey, you know, dad fell again and, or, you know, he's in the hospital, it's a hip thing or it's a, you know, like you had states to traverse across. 

Trish:
But that's pretty minor when you exactly, as you're saying, so very often the call comes from the hospital, we've got your mom, your units. Right, right. And you're like, oh, and you have days. If you're lucky to get things in place and you know, are you hopping on an airplane? Are you, you know, driving

Wendy:
Across town five times a week now, are you, yeah, my mom took care of my, her dad for a long time. And it was like, if he wanted a haircut, she was like driving 30 minutes and packing in the grocery store and doing a couple of other errands just because she was, you know, 30 minutes away on a good day. Yeah. So, right. So like, if we go back to that call from your mom, like, did you have any feelings around like, oh, she's aging? Or when did that sort of time hit you that like, oh wow, mom's getting older. And like, I'm starting to really see it and feel it now. Cause that's something that nobody wants to do. But I imagine that that happened.

Trish:
That's a great question. A couple of years prior to the phone call, we started talking about she was living in her own home and you know, we realized that she wasn't maybe driving as well as we had thought that she might be "was she eating appropriately?" Her friends weren't able to drive. And so she wasn't out getting social interaction as, and my mother was, uh, a huge socialites socializing person. She thrived on being around other people. And we started getting worried about that. And nobody lived in Ohio. We lived in three different states across the country. And so we didn't have eyes on her. Right. So we had lots of conversations. She refused at every step, which believe me is very common. I'm sure a lot of your listeners know that. And so it was about working with her on a slow and steady process of trying to get her to admit the challenges she was facing. And that's never

Wendy:
Come to that herself.

Trish:
Yeah. We were very lucky, very lucky. Very few older adults will come and say, Hey, I don't think I can drive anymore. Or I think I should not be living in a home my own home anymore. That is incredibly rare. Right. People want to stay at home. They, they want their independence taking the car away is probably the worst thing in the world to

Wendy:
Them. Is that what you've really noticed is like, right. Well, it's like an admission in some ways of like, oh yeah, my eyes, my brain, my limbs and response time. That's hard.

Trish:
I wish it was that usually it's much more about the, uh, the police have called their spin an accident. There are scratches and dents in the car, uh, neighbors have called and said, Hey, we don't think that Ethel should be out on the road anymore. Yeah. Very, very few adults will admit, get to that, get to that point where they admit it themselves.

Wendy:
Right. Oh, that's gotta be hard for like kids to sort of take in because that's also a social pressure as well. Right. Like, oh, somebody is calling me about my mom and or my dad or my whoever like, oh, like somebody else's noticing I'm not there. Sometimes that can be really painful and a pressure around like, shoot, what else is going on?

Trish:
No, that's absolutely true, Wendy, is that there's that? Oh gosh. Did I not have my eyes on the ball? Uh, did I not see what, you know, when I was visiting, was I not paying attention to what they were eating, how they were driving all of these things of guilt. And I'll tell you that there's a myriad of feelings that pop up throughout this process. And it's very natural, but it's scary as all get out.

Wendy:
Wow. I would love to talk a little bit more about what those feelings are just to like give everyone who's listening just a little bit of a heads up at like, Hey, normal and natural, which is something we talk about in grief anyway. But in terms of like parents and dynamics with parents are like different for everyone, right? So like that's a whole other thing to consider, but I'd love to hear about some of the the feelings that go on as, as things progress. So if you have like a hypothetical story or two I'd love to hear.

Trish:
Yes. I would say that any feeling coming up during this is completely natural. Yes. I have a million stories, uh, because I think we have to remember that not everybody grew up in the Brady bunch. This was not everybody had this perfect functional family in reality. Most of us did not. And I've had everything from the, the doting, loving, caring, uh, siblings who are all gathered together to do the best for mom and or dad or the aunt or the cousin. But I've also had the son that got the phone call from his sisters, who said, we're done, we're done caring for mom. It's your turn. And he had no interest in caring for his mother. He called me and said, I'll pay the bills. I just never want to speak to, or see her again. You know, and you have to validate that, that not everybody had a good childhood. And I was impressed that he was willing to do the I'll pay for it. I'll make sure that she's safe. But, uh, he was not interested in having any relationship with her. Right. So I stepped in and took care of all the logistics and the details for her, but he didn't have to, he was still dealing with a lot of its own trauma and I wanted give him the space to do that.

Wendy:
Right. Right. Well, and that's like, nice in terms of like, just being clear about what the need is and what the boundary is too, because that's what that sounds like is like, Hey, here's where I am. And like, this is probably where I'm staying is like, that's just more than reasonable because it's so clear.

Trish:
Right. And it's not always that clear for most people. You know, the boundary issue is a very real one. I see a lot of ho you know, adult children, family members, who all of a sudden, they find themselves deep within caring for this other adult. And it wasn't something they planned. They've got a full family, they've got a job, they've got their own lives to lead. And the boundaries have just been pushed aside completely. And a lot of times I get phone calls from adult children who are calling and I just stop. And I say, oh my gosh, you've done so much. We need to help you step back a little bit. And they just break down, completely break down because they're at their wits end. And that's so normal that we just keep trying to go and go and go and go and do everything that's needed. But there's a breaking point.

Wendy:
And this is hard work like caregiving, even in just the planning and the logistics and the setup, like there's the emotional side, but like the parents may or may not be down with, or agreeable amenable to this change. It could be that, you know, dynamics between some siblings are great with one parent and not within, you know, like it's, it's the gamut. And so what I'm here to say is like, caregiving is hard and essential and, and like, we're not really prepared how to do it other than, oh, shoot. Uh, I didn't see this coming. Although, you know, everybody around me in the world has, you know, there are old people in the world, there are people who are aging in the world. That's probably one of them.

Trish:
We would never say...

Wendy:
No, you're absolutely to like, have it be, yeah,

Trish:
The caregiving is overwhelming, uh, can be overwhelming. I think it's just a basic that adult children are just overwhelmed with everything that is going on. So yes, caregiving is overwhelming as it is for just the basics of adult children, dealing with these issues, something you mentioned about, you know, just the, of caregiving and all that. It's also expensive. It's expensive in time, energy knowledge, but also finances and not all families have those finances to bring in caregivers, somebody to give them a break, to relieve them of some of those duties. Respite. Yeah. And that's important for sure.

Wendy:
Thank you so much for mentioning the other currencies of value, which is like, you know, this is the blood, sweat, and tears part of, of what that job entails, especially for someone that you, you know, is in your family. You know, whether or not you have a smoother and easy dynamic, that is a challenge, then it's just a challenge. And there, the cost is more than financial. So thank you so much for saying,

Trish:
Yeah. I also talked to my adult children about those boundaries that we referred to earlier of what I really would love to do is be able to take their, to do list their tasks off their list, take them on myself so that I can do the logistics. I can do the details, but nobody else can be that loving, caring daughter, son, cousin, uncle only. They can do that. And if they are totally taken over by all the logistics, the anger, the, the fears, the concerns, there's no room for them to come over and say, Hey, dad, tell me about the time, you know, and have those things. And the older adults absolutely need that component. And I can try that, but it's never going to have the same effect as those adult family members. Right.

Wendy:
Right. It's a bigger impact. There's more meaning there. Right. Right. So if I'm hearing you correctly, like caregiving is like the, kind of the unspoken job that is often assumed by some adult children. And then there's no room for them to be the, the adult child, right. Like the son, the daughter, the, you know, stepdaughter or whatever. But those are different roles. Those are different roles.

Trish:
Right. Right. I think you were asking about some of the other feelings and we've talked about being overwhelmed and, you know, that's kind of the go-to, but we're also seeing so much of fear and concern. I want to do the best for my parent. But I also have fear of losing my parent. You know, maybe they're, they're really ill and I'm afraid of their death, uh, rejection, a lot people, you know, if I tell dad that he can't drive anymore, he's not going to speak to me again. You know, I don't want to make them angry. I don't want to make other people in the family angry. What if I make a wrong decision? I don't want to be the bad guy. You know, I don't want to be the one to tell dad that he can't drive. I don't want to tell mom that she has to move uni. Right. And usually hard. Yeah. It's really hard. And usually what happens is, as you well know, if you have that fear and that concern pretty quickly, it turns into anger. They start resenting.

Wendy:
My, yeah. My fuse gets real short. Yeah. When like, stuff like that happens when I'm concerned or worried and fearful about any. I mean, we, we lived through 20, 20 so far, so I've had some practice, but, but that's like natural. Like that's like the steam release part of that pressure system that gets built up and built up and built up.

Trish:
Not only do they get there, they're angry because of all of that. But they also are angry at other siblings. Why didn't they do something? Why aren't they stepping up? Why do I have to do all of this? You know, I'm here just because I live nearby. Why do I have to do everything? And why can't George help out financially? Or why can't they say, thank you every once in a while. There's a lot of that, but also angry at the parent anger at the parent that why didn't they listen to my, my warnings earlier? You know, I told them, I told them they were going to have to move. You know, I said that they, oh, I begged dad to go and fill out the will or do the power of attorney. And they just went and listened to me. You know, all these kinds of things that anger just starts popping up all over the place.

Wendy:
Right. Well, and that has to do with so many other feelings too. Right. So if it's like, if there, if that adult child is seeing things coming and they're saying it out loud, then they're, it's like, oh, they're not being heard. So that could be like a loss of voice, a loss of respect. They are not hearing me. They don't, I understand that they don't want to hear me, but that's my brain. That's not my heart. Right. So like losses are happening all along the way. And then there's like, now we're in this big mess. And I saw it coming. I did what I could do about saying something, but they couldn't hear me. That's painful. That's very painful. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Because, oh, right. It's already hard. It's already hard shoot. So I love to hear just a few suggestions or ideas. It could be based on stories that you've had. Again, these are all normal feelings that are coming up. We don't know how to do this. We don't know how to do this. So could you give some ideas or suggestions around like, Hey, if your parents are aging or you're starting to notice or be concerned, what, what can our listeners do or recommend to their friends and family?

Trish:
Excellent question. And yeah, I go through this a lot with my, just as my clients are coming on board. There's several things that I check in on some of the first things I would recommend any person that is anticipating having to deal with someone else's health or, you know, care in the future, get them in front of a lawyer, get them in front of a lawyer to fill out some very basic information. There are three documents that I focus on a power of attorney. So that's, so you can help with their finances and their healthcare decisions. Then something called a healthcare directive, which is kind of like a living will. And it says things like, oh, I want to be resuscitated. I want to have intravenous food, things like that, those details. And then the last one is a will or a trust depending on your situation. And what I try to tell everybody I talked to is that these are not related to age. We all, anybody over the age of 18 should have these three documents in place. Lawyers are great. They usually do all three documents for one flat fee. You can go online and download these documents if you want. I personally always like to go through a lawyer, but everybody is different and finances are different, but get these in place as quickly as possible. And they can always be changed. They can always be updated, but get a baseline in.

Wendy:
Good. Oh, excellent. I gotta tell you when when Jennifer and I did ours, uh, our, our three documents, it felt liberating. It, there was like a, like a pressure. I didn't know I had around this stuff, like, oh, I actually know what the plan is. You're such an adult. Wow. Thanks. But there's like, I wasn't expecting, I think the field liberated and I enjoyed that feeling. Yeah.

Trish:
Yeah. And just a quick aside, we ask that everybody update those every 10 years. I tried to do it on my zero birthdays, 40 50 when I hit 60, just kind of to get those things updated.

Wendy:
Oh, that's a great point. Thank you. Awesome. What else, what else do you check in around?

Trish:
I think this is a great time to also check in with your siblings. If there are siblings or other family members share family members, but it could also be just other stakeholders. You know, it could be partners of the alien or presumed alien parent, cousin, whatever. Uh, it could be close friends that live around them, get their insight and agree that you all try to work together.

Wendy:
Ooh. Yeah, yeah. The baseline.

Trish:
Right. Just so that you won't be in that situation alone. Also talk about it with your own family. If you have a spouse or partner kids talk about what will happen when granddad isn't doing so well. Right. You know, are we thinking about moving them into the house? Are we, you know, what if he moves lives somewhere else? Where are we, how are we going to do that? Start having those conversations amongst each other, as well as with the older adult so that you start understanding their preferences. And they started understanding that you're concerned

Wendy:
Without it being a confrontation, right. More of a conversation.

Trish:
It's so much easier to do it now, rather than in the house.

Wendy:
Oh gosh. Yeah. That's a lot of other painful things going on and scary,

Trish:
So scary. So having those conversations ahead of time, as much as possible, and you know, I'm sure you've got things and there's tons of things on the internet and I can provide, you know, starting points of how to start those conversations. Right. So that you're not just like, oh gosh, which 1:00 AM I going to? Y'all know, what am I going to say? Talk to your parent and starting to take on that role of a parent, right. To your parents. Right.

Wendy:
Oh my gosh. Yeah. Do you find it like helpful to ask other people who have been through, like, can you find a friend who's been through this with their parent can like, are there podcasts or resources, just so like, Hey, I'm okay with like making my own mistakes, but if I don't have to, and it doesn't like, come at my mom's expense or my dad's expense, like I, I would like to just preserve as much

Trish:
And you know, no matter what help you get, you're still gonna make mistakes. And that's okay. You know, every situation is different. There's new challenges pop up every day. But yes, if you have somebody, a friend that you can at least call and say, oh my gosh, they're driving me crazy. You know? Or what did you do in this situation? A lot of places, there are a lot of resources I should say that have support groups for adult children to come and talk about these things. Uh, there are professionals like myself that can help guide you. Uh, there are books about how to deal a lot dealing with if your parent has dementia, because that's such a unique situation for every family. But yeah. Trying to find that support where you can getting those answers where you can, and at some point you just have to kind of trust that you're doing the best you can.

Wendy:
Right. Right. That's the whole point is doing the best we can. Aren't we all trying that? Yeah.

Trish:
I'd love to think that.

Wendy:
For sure. Yeah. For sure. What am I forgetting to ask you about that you are, let's just popping into your mind?

Trish:
Probably just something, if you don't think mom and dad or whoever are needing your help yet next time you visit, I would check in with the neighbors. Okay. Hey, I'm just going to go over and speak to Mrs. Wigglebottom. Uh, because all of a sudden you find out that they've been the ones taking the trash in and out every week. They're the ones that mom calls and says, Hey, I can't get this jar open. Or, uh, George fell, can you help me pick them up? Uh, all, all of us, you know, walk around the car, see if there are a dance. These are things that I encourage people just start looking. You might not find anything. And gosh, I hope you don't, but should you, then your eyes are a little more awake,

Wendy:
Right? And if you do go over to like say a neighbor's house and you don't know them, is it like maybe helpful to offer your contact information?

Trish:
Absolutely. Yes. Got a business card, drop it off, you know, bring over a box of chocolates or some flowers or something and just say, Hey, I I'm visiting from out of town. And I'm just checking in. I just thought if you ever thought that I needed to know something here, feel free to give me a call. Plus you want their information for the day that mom doesn't answer the phone and it's been 48 hours. You want to be able to calm this wiggle bottom and say, Hey, have you seen my mom? Can you pop over and knock on the door? That type of thing.

Wendy:
Right. Plus you just want to say hi, Mrs. Weipa bottom. Yeah. Like just for fun, just for fun. Just to say the name out loud. Oh Trish. Thank you so much, Trish with elder care consulting, LLC. Thank you. I, I know there's way more for us to talk about. Will you come back for another episode with

Trish:
Me? I did delight and thank you so much, Wendy. This has been so wonderful. I'm so,

Wendy:
So glad I'm going to include your website information in the show notes. And so it's, uh, what is your website? Just out loud for the folks who are listening?

Trish:
Yeah. Eldercarenorthwest.com. Of course I'm based here in Seattle, but I actually work with families all across the country. So feel free to give a call.

Wendy:
Trish! Such a total delight. Thank you so much for helping me and helping us. Really. I appreciate your time here.

Trish:
So thank you. Well, thank you for all you do for everybody out there.

Wendy:
Thank you. Thank you. And speaking of everybody out there, thank you for joining us, such a treat. We are going to see you on the next episode. I don't know what it's going to be about, but it's going to be good. Thank you. And talk to you soon.

We are more familiar with loss than we think we are.

Especially since the pandemic broke last year.

There are more than 40 loss events that may be experienced over the course of a life.

​Did you know this? It's kind of mind-blowing. 

In our society, we have a better understanding of how to go after a gain and what to do with a "win", than we are with what to do with a loss... or with feelings of grief, for that matter. 

Often we don't know how to "be" with our own feelings of loss... or others's feelings of loss when something devastating, tragic, or even disappointing happens.

There are tools, there is a method
The truth is, we aren't taught or given the direction, tools, or even the emotionally helpful communications to help us navigate losses... or be there with real emotional support for others either.

The right tools and education just haven't been that widely available over the last 4 decades... but there are effective, evidence-based, repeatable tools to learn. I've learned the tools myself, and have been trained to share them with others. That's all that I've been doing since May of 2020.

When you look at the list of losses...
Please bear in mind, not everyone may experience all the kinds of losses in the following list.
(This is definitely not a Bingo Card...) 

Browse this list to help you identify and clarify specific losses and how they may have affected you in your life, including in your relationships.

While you scan the list, remember that feelings of grief are normal and natural when we experience losses of every kind. Also, conflicting feelings may arise when familiar patterns or behaviors end or change.

Take a look... what have you experienced in your life so far?

1. Death of a spouse
2. Divorce
3. Marital separation
4. Imprisonment: self, friend, family member
5. Death of a family member
6. Personal injury or illness
7. Marriage
8. Dismissal from work
9. Marital reconciliation
10. Retirement
11. Change in health of spouse or other family member
12. Pregnancy
13. Sexual difficulties
14. Gain a new family member
15. Business readjustment
16. Change in a financial state
17. Death of a close friend
18. Change to a different line of work
19. Change in frequency of arguments
20. Foreclosure of mortgage or loan
21. Change in responsibilities at work
22. Child leaving home
23. Change with in-laws
24. Outstanding personal achievement
25. Spouse starts or stops work
26. Begin or end of school
27. Change in living conditions
28. Revision of personal habits
29. Trouble with boss or team
30. Change in working hours or conditions
31. Change in residence
32. Change in schools
33. Change in recreation
34. Change in church, religious, or spiritual communities
35. Change in social activities
36. Change in mortgage or loan
37. Change in sleeping habits
38. Change in number of family reunions
39. Change in eating or drinking habits
40. Vacation
41. Christmas
42. Minor violation of law
43. Loss of Trust
44. Loss of Approval
45. Loss of Safety
46. Loss of control of my body
47. Loss of identity
48. Loss or change in reproductive function
49. First of the lasts

This list shares very nearly 50 loss events that can happen in a life. The feelings of grief and loss may include myriad other feelings and symptoms as you navigate and process the loss/es. 

The Grief Recovery Method (which I teach) may be applied to all of the above loss events in order to move beyond the pain, loneliness, and isolation that arise when a loss (or losses) occur. 
Schedule your Connection Call with me today.

What else I'd love for you to know is that when it comes to feelings of loss and grief, death is not required. 

Nobody has to die in order for you to just feel those natural feelings of heaviness, loss, concern, worry. These are things that just happen in our bodies. And, uh, it's also something that we are ill-equipped to handle as a society we know about acquiring and getting and leveraging. What we don't know is about when things leave or die or are let go of.

So we are going to focus on heart healing from loss, just like it says in the title, and grief, just to reiterate is the normal and natural and incredibly powerful emotion. 

Okay, great. What else is it? Okay. It's sometimes known as the conflicting feelings caused by the end or change in a familiar pattern of behavior. 

So something can change and that can inspire feelings of loss or heaviness, a sense of sadness, a sense of, “Ooh, what's going to happen now?” 

Maybe even uncertainty can cause feelings, of grief, of feeling a loss. So that's when patterns change when they stop, that can also be a loss. 

What do I mean by that? Well, it's 2020. So we're experiencing changes in patterns of behavior. That's a change in commute. That's a change in a job that could be a change in the job flow. That could be a change in the business that you're in.

And that's just the workfront. 

What else are we talking about? Change-wise, we're talking about school. School's not held the same way this year. I've been talking with parents who have been going into these schools, which are empty in order to pick up books. And they are crying in the parking lot because it is silent in these big educational buildings where they are just ready to hear laughing and lots of kids and lots of hustle and bustle. 

It's not there this year. That is a change. It is a small change in the big picture, but I gotta tell you when it comes to grief and loss, according to the studies I’m reading, it all adds up and... it gets real heavy. 

So if you're feeling heaviness and loss, and you're concerned that like, “Wow, why am I feeling this? When nobody I know has died, you may not know of anyone who's died from the coronavirus directly?”

You still may be feeling grief and loss… it’s entirely natural and normal. And you're in the right place. 
You're in the right place. 

So what else can be “counted?” (I'm air quoting, there.) What else can be counted as a loss? I don't know if you knew this or not, but there are 40 different kinds of loss events that can happen in our lives. 

They can certainly include death. It could also be a divorce or a breakup. It could be the death of a pet. It could be a move. Moving is a big emotional change. Talk about your entire center of where you live... It gets different. Whether it's from an apartment to a house, even in a happy situation, there are still losses to be counted. Starting school marriage could indicate some form of loss. Graduation denotes the end of your schooling.

Although it's a happy event too. I mean, that's an achievement, but there is a change in, you know, if you're going onto another school, it's a change of curriculum. It's a change of space. It's probably a change of your schedule. 

Major health changes are another form of loss. Do you know anybody who's ever experienced a loss of health? So maybe you break your leg and it gets to be a temporary thing, but that is a big change. If you're a runner, you may be grieving the loss of running for a while. Even if you know, in your brain, it's temporary and your leg is healing. 

These are the kinds of losses we are talking about. And we'll continue to talk about because what's not happening is a conversation. I understand. It's scary to think about going inside and, and feeling those emotions that aren't super fun.

These are not the top 10 emotions to feel and... it's dark in there. I don't want to go in there. Certainly not by myself. 

Well. that's why I'm here. And we're just going to walk together. It's a gentle approach and let's just keep the conversation open. Sound good? Okay. 

So in today's conversation, what I'd love to talk about are some of the feelings that are produced when you experienced the loss of a loved one. What else? Some of the feelings that are produced when you experience the loss of a less-than-loved one. I also want to share just a little bit about what is not required when it comes to loss. First, before dig into that juicy, juicy stuff, what I want to sorta clue in on is just some terms, gentle easy terms. So we're all on the same page when we're talking about grief and loss. Let's go,

All right. So the feelings... 
Sometimes it's hard to even understand and know what your feelings are. So I'm going to just break it down with a couple of examples... Check-in, and see if these resonate at all with you. Okay. Ready? 

The death of a loved one can produce emotions that can be described as the feeling of reaching out for someone who has always been there only to find that when we need them one more time, they are no longer there. I'm going to read that just one more time: 

“The feeling of reaching out for someone who has always been there only to find that when we need them one more time, they are no longer there.”

Now, these feelings could come as a result of a death. They could also be a result of an estrangement, an argument, a breakup. What else, what else in your life could this be relevant to? Because that's what we're talking about. It doesn't have to be a husband/wife thing. It doesn't have to be a death per se, although it, you know, it could be in your life. And in your experience.

Part of grief, and recovery from grief, or recovery from feelings of loss, is about really coming to understand what the emotions are. So that's what this conversation is about. 

It's, it's about trying to help determine or discern what it actually is that you're feeling. So that's about emotions that come up with a loved one. 

What if you're working with, or smack in the middle of experiencing, a less than loved one? A loss around a less than loved one? Perhaps you had a parent or guardian who's like, you just really wanted it to be a different relationship. You longed for something different, or better, or more... sometimes, you wished for less of certain behaviors that you experienced with this person that can also summon emotions of grief as well. 

And that feeling is one, maybe, one of reaching out for someone who has never been there for you. And still isn't like that whole longing of “please, be there for me,” inviting them aching for just the response that you want or need, and still not available.

In fact, if they have moved across the country or now they passed on... whatever it is, it's that, that feeling of wanting and still not being able to receive what it is you want from them. 

Totally normal. Totally normal and natural to experience emotions of loss around this thing is we just don't know this. We haven't been taught this. These are the words that are needed in the world is that this is normal. This is natural. And there's a way through, Hey, before we get too much, further ahead, I do want to touch a little bit on conflicting feelings. They are totally around grief and loss as well. So let me share a little example. Let's say somebody that you love dies after a long-suffering illness, they've been in pain, they've experienced the loss of mobility, loss of health, a loss of independence all along the way.

And let's say this has happened for... two or three years. So it's been a long go of it. And they've been incrementally losing their faculties, losing just kind of their personality a little bit on the way they're grieving their own loss of health. 

And let's say that you're really close to them and you're standing by and you're watching this and it's hard, and you're showing up and you're watching this and it's really hard... and it's getting harder. And then you have the diagnosis or the prognosis that says X number of days, weeks, or months to live.

There may be conflicting feelings that come up that are normal and natural. This is the thing:  we want people that we love to not be in pain. We want them to be joyful and present and loving their life and in their bodies and that's not always available. And so when we see deterioration or a loss, or incremental losses, these are really challenging. 

I’ve got to take my hat off to the caregivers here. Whether you're taking care of a client or a child or a spouse, this is hard. And so conflicting feelings of feeling a sense of relief that your loved one's suffering is near over. When you get that prognosis that is a part of grieving. This is something that people often talk about, beating themselves up about and feeling guilty about when it is a part of their grieving process, totally normal and natural.

And these things aren't talked about, it's the same sort of thing with divorce. There may be conflicting feelings there too. When you know, it's the right thing to do to part ways as partners, you know, whether kids are involved or not, you may have conflicting feelings because it's still a loss. 

And when we go back to that definition of what grief is, it's “the conflicting feelings caused by the end of or change in a familiar pattern or behavior familiar pattern or behavior”, that could totally include marriage or steady relationship. 

So there may be conflicting feelings there too, yes, even though, you know it's the right thing to do, and you're going to be best for both of you. It still does count as a loss and grief may come up and conflicting feelings are just part of the bag. That's part of the bargain. 

Not required
This being said, there are a couple of things that are not required when it comes to grief and loss.
Do you know what they are? Can you guess what I'm going to say? 

1. Tears, or crying are not required. You can feel all the feelings and not feel tears coming on. There are several people that I've talked to who are just like, I didn't do it. I didn't, I didn't cry. And I feel bad cause I'm, I'm not sure if I did it right. I want to tell you, you did. You did it right. If tears don't come, you don't have to make them come or wait for them to come. You can just say, “Hey, that's, that's not what this is about. It's not about performing.”
It's just not. And so go with what feels right. And natural. Every relationship is totally different. 

I was at my grandmother's funeral and she had an open casket there. And that was not something that was usual in our family. And I saw her and I just didn't feel it. I must've been about 12 years old and I did not feel moved to tears. I loved my grandmother. I didn't cry. I don't know why, but that's, that's what was real for me. 

So if that is real for you, just go with it. You know, grieving and loss are hard enough. You do not have to pressure or judge yourself about how you are behaving. Like, feeling is plenty good enough. 

What else is not required? 

2. Death, actually, is not required. There's plenty of change in and around what's going on in the world for you to incur feelings of grief and loss.

It's hard enough. Like you don't have to diminish your feelings of sadness or heaviness or any of those things with what is going on just in the world around us right now, it already feels bad enough. 

It's okay if nobody has died in your world. Maybe that's something to be grateful for and still honor the feelings that you have around sadness because it's real. 

And it's there and normal to feel. Do we love feeling these like harder feelings? No, we don't. But feeling them is the gateway through them, getting done, and them being complete. 

And it, you know, it honors what's going on around you. It's real. 

3. Anger is not required during grief or loss. Anger, of course, it totally may come up. If it comes up, I recommend you go with that too. But if it doesn't come up, it’s absolutely okay. 

Here’s an example: I had, I talked about this in Episode 0: it was about my dog, Otter. He was a beloved boy who was also an old man dog at the very end. I was not angry that it was time for him to go. It just didn't come up. And this could happen around losses with people too. This could happen with other kinds of losses. 

Anger is not required in a grieving process. It's just not. 

But the 5 Stages say so...
Maybe you have heard of Elizabeth Kubler-Ross's work around the 5 Stages of Death. The five stages that were actually assigned toward people who were dying, or who had received a prognosis of dying. And those were the stages that they go through in their process. 

Well, what's happened is that people have adopted the 5 stages for those grieving and in grief (but not necessarily dying) The 5 stages are denial. anger, bargaining... then, there's the other two, depression and acceptance.

She did not ascribe it to grief as a process for us, the grievers. Her work of identifying the stages was for people who were dying. 

Grief in our case is not a linear thing. This is kind of like the squiggly-wiggly road that goes from point A to point B. And sometimes it feels really messy and uncertain. That's why I'm here. 

There is a way through, and I work in grief recovery. And if you want to talk more about it, please definitely reach out to me. But until then anger and death and crying or tears are not required to experience grief or loss.

Thanks again for joining me today. This is Wendy Slonaker from Heart Healing from Loss. I'm a certified Grief Recovery Method specialist and an end of life doula. For more information, please go to my website, hearthealingfromloss.com and definitely reach out if you'd like to have a call with me and we can talk about what it might be like to move forward through your grief experience and process.

Thanks again. And we'll see you on the next episode.

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